The story of VR getting signed to Atlantic Records Bob Zemsky was a sort of… Read Full Bio ↴The story of VR getting signed to Atlantic Records
Bob Zemsky was a sort of quirky odd playboy type character from New York who had the financial means to travel around at his leisure in the US and overseas. He had just parted ways with Savatage (who he had been co-managing) and he was looking for a new band to work with. Luck would have it that one night when we were playing a concert at the Omni in Oakland, Bob happened to be there! He was very impressed with us and he introduced himself to the band. He told us he had contacts with Atlantic Records (Savatage's Label) and his good friend Jason Flom (Atlantic VP in the rock/metal dept.) Bob is a very funny, and strange guy, not the business suit type you normally associate with management. I think we were a bit taken back by his interest and his approach. I'm not sure that we believed him or took him to serious at first.
1989 wore on, we had been unable to get a new deal with any labels. Every major label in the US had turned us down (some of them several times) Atlantic had not even been interested. This was not looking good for us. Mike Varney did not even offer us a new deal with Shrapnel once we completed our obligation to him with the Digital Dictator album. The only interest we had was from our European Shrapnel affiliate (Roadrunner). It seems that in 1989, we were not heavy enough to attract the attention of labels that were signing thrash-metal bands at the rate of 10 a day, nor were we pop and commercial enough to interest those labels looking for the Poison, Warrant,Guns and Roses type bands. We were just to damn good, and nobody knew what to do with us! Enter Bob Zemsky.......
Bob told us we were great (hey, we knew that!) and that he could get us signed to Atlantic. This was looking to be the break that we had been searching for. The only problem was that we were getting signed more on the basis of Bob's friendship with Jason Flom, and less on our talent and ability. Jason had already turned VR down before, and it was only Bob's influence that got him to give us another look. Jason offered us a 10 album deal that was very low risk for the label. Since no other labels were willing to sign us, we had no way to really negotiate with Atlantic for anything and they knew it. There was no bidding war going on in the industry for the rights to sign Vicious Rumors. We basically were offered a 'take it or leave it deal'. This may sound like crap, but we had no real options. We were able to get the deal down to 7 records instead of 10 (we wanted 5), but other then that, it was a done deal. We took solace in the fact that Atlantic was a big powerful label, and although it was a gamble, it could pay off for us big time since we new we were a great band and that we had a very strong belief in ourselves and our music.
Atlantic sent a rep out to see us play a show with Paul Stanley (who was on his solo club tour) in the spring of 89, and that basically sealed it. By the summer we had signed a 7 album world wide contract. Since we had no money up front from the label, this was definitely a case of "don't quit your day job". This was a no risk deal for Atlantic. If we were a bust and the records stiffed, they would just drop us and say they were not really that interested anyway, and if we broke through and sold a million records, they would probably take all the credit. Don't get me wrong, we were really excited with all of this going on. Sure, we would have liked to get a better deal with some up front money, but we knew that signing with a big time label like Atlantic was still a dream come true
We had a party and signed the contracts at Mexicali Rose Restaurant in Oakland,CA. This was a cool place that we would hang out at often since it is real close to our rehearsal studio. We all sat at a big table with our girlfriends and kids with us, had dinner, and passed around a bottle of wine as we signed the contracts (I have all this on video!). Welcome to the big leagues !/p>
The numbers are a bit vague to me after all this time, but I recall the deal with Atlantic was something like this: $35,000 for the recording budget on the first record, up $10,000 extra for each record that would follow. $25,000 for the first video, up $10,000 extra for the next video's, etc. We had a print ad budget, touring budget and so on. $35,000 may not seem like alot of money to make a record, but remember that we came from Shrapnel where we were on strict time and money constraints: SOTN was done for less then $10,000 at 108 hours, and DD was about $18,000 at 116 hours. We were not worried about the recording budget at all, since we had learned to work fast in the studio thanks to Mike Varney !/p>
This was a really great time for us, whenever we went out to the clubs and hung out, people would come up and give us high five's and say congratulations on the new deal!! I think many of the other local bands envied us and were jealous, but I don't think we ever really flaunted or boasted about what we were doing. We tried to keep ourselves level headed about the whole Atlantic situation and keep our feet on the ground. I must say though that all of us were really happy with this new opportunity and we did allow ourselves to dream of the possibilities of hitting the big time with the next record. I for one went shopping with my girlfriend Stephanie (future wife) for a live aboard yacht!! That was my dream, so if the money did come in, that is where my head was at !!
Other nice things started to happen once we got signed to a big label. With Mark's help, I signed an exclusive endorsement with Ibanez to play there basses. (Mark had been with them since 88) Geoff signed a deal with Jackson. I was given 2 LE828 basses and they made a Custom "Dave Starr" 8 string bass for me! We also signed deals with D'Addario strings, EMG pick-ups, Dimarzio pick-ups, and Pick-Boy picks. It was amazing how the free gear started to flow in once we signed to a major label. Ibanez had turned me down twice before in 87 and 88 when we were with Shrapnel.
VR entered Fantasy Studios in Berkeley Ca. the summer of 1989 to record our 3rd album, and the 1st for our new label Atlantic Records. As with the SOTN and DD records, we went in ready to rock with the tunes we wanted. We had no extra songs or throw aways, just 10 killer tracks.
The record was to be produced by Michael Rosen with the help of Geoff and Mark as co-producers. I had decided early on that I would stay the hell out of this one as far as the production and mixing goes thanks to my bad vibes with Geoff on the Digital Dictator mix down.
Making records can be fun to some, but I find it to be a really nerve racking and tiresome experience. I was going to concentrate only on my bass tracks, and then get the hell out of the studio!
Michael Rosen pushed me pretty hard at times on this record. I think I got along with him fine, but he was a real perfectionist and would spot flaws in some of my bass tracks making me go over and over until it was up to his standards. Several times I thought I was going to lose my temper with him, but I kept my cool. I thought I would have a song nailed down, only to hear him say over the headphones "You need to do this one again Dave." Once the record was done, I think Michael had made me a better musician and bassist.
Being the bass player was great because Larry and I got to do our tracks first, and as I recall - I think he and I were done with the bass and drums in about a week. I played one of my new Ibanez basses on most of the tracks, and I used an old Kramer 8 string on "Ship of Fools" and "Can You Hear It." I really love the 8 string bass and I wish I would have used it on more tunes with VR.
As usual, we were very tight and fast in the studio. Some of these songs we had been playing live for over a year, so all of the bugs had long been worked out. The record was almost called "Immortal Battalion," this was Geoff's idea and I thought it was a great name, but the consensus now was to call it simply "Vicious Rumors" since we would be heard by many people for the first time even though it would be our third album.
Geoff and Mark continued to write the bulk of the albums material along with Carl. Some of my favorite VR tunes came out on this record, "Ship of Fools" and "Can you hear It." These songs were great then and they still sound great ten years later. I suggested to Mark and Geoff that I play the harmony solo intro with them on "Ship," and I think it really added to the song. A controversy erupted over this song between Mark and I that I think you may find interesting...
I had shown Mark a guitar riff of mine several months earlier. He said it sounded good, but we never did anything with it. Mark ends up later writing "Ship" with a chorus part that sounds a lot like the riff I had shown him months before!! I confronted Mark about this, and he said I was crazy! He refused to change the part or give me a co-write credit on the song. I kept up a verbal war of words with him over this for a few months, and it was not resolved until after the album was recorded.
Geoff said he was tired of hearing us fighting about it, and he gave me a portion of his song writing credit on "Ship" to put the issue to rest. Very generous on Geoff's part I must say, but equally selfish on Mark's as well. Mark denies the plagiarism to this day, but the fact is that I got a co-write credit on "Ship Of Fools" and I have the publishing documents to back it up!
That minor episode aside, Mark and Geoff continued the VR tradition of great songs and equally great guitar work on this album. Kirk Hammett told me later that Geoff's solo on "Don't Wait" was amazing! Not to be out done, Mark kicked ass with great solo's and complex rhythm parts. His guitar solo's on "Ship" and "Down to the Temple" are two of my favorites. The "Down to the Temple" solo section always reminded me of the vibe on KK Downings "Sinner" solo from Judas priest.
Carl was his usual flawless self and set new standards for Rock/Metal vocalists that remain to this day. He improved on his already legendary Digital Dictator vocal work!
Larry has to be one of the fastest guys I have ever seen in the studio. Nerves of steel! He would usually nail the songs in one or two takes!
There were a few things on this album that I didn't like. One of them was the bass solo I did on "Thrill of the Hunt." I had a totally different idea when we did demos of this song. On the demo I played a 5 string Steinberger bass tuned to high B instead of low B. For the solo, I played it in the highest register possible using distortion and delay. I thought it was really cool, but I think Mark and Geoff thought I was trying to be a guitar player!
I still think the solo on the demo version sounds better then what I did on the album! Also, The bass was a little low in the mix overall on some parts of this record. I think Geoff's idea of hearing the bass is to have the bass control on his Marshall turned up to 10 ! All in all a great album that I am still proud of today.
The album was originally to be released in late 1989, but Atlantic ended up pushing it back until Feb. 1990. In the meantime, we did some more touring on the West coast to showcase the new songs, and we filmed the video for "Don't Wait For Me" in Hollywood Jan. of 1990.
Dave Starr 8-9-2000
Bob Zemsky was a sort of quirky odd playboy type character from New York who had the financial means to travel around at his leisure in the US and overseas. He had just parted ways with Savatage (who he had been co-managing) and he was looking for a new band to work with. Luck would have it that one night when we were playing a concert at the Omni in Oakland, Bob happened to be there! He was very impressed with us and he introduced himself to the band. He told us he had contacts with Atlantic Records (Savatage's Label) and his good friend Jason Flom (Atlantic VP in the rock/metal dept.) Bob is a very funny, and strange guy, not the business suit type you normally associate with management. I think we were a bit taken back by his interest and his approach. I'm not sure that we believed him or took him to serious at first.
1989 wore on, we had been unable to get a new deal with any labels. Every major label in the US had turned us down (some of them several times) Atlantic had not even been interested. This was not looking good for us. Mike Varney did not even offer us a new deal with Shrapnel once we completed our obligation to him with the Digital Dictator album. The only interest we had was from our European Shrapnel affiliate (Roadrunner). It seems that in 1989, we were not heavy enough to attract the attention of labels that were signing thrash-metal bands at the rate of 10 a day, nor were we pop and commercial enough to interest those labels looking for the Poison, Warrant,Guns and Roses type bands. We were just to damn good, and nobody knew what to do with us! Enter Bob Zemsky.......
Bob told us we were great (hey, we knew that!) and that he could get us signed to Atlantic. This was looking to be the break that we had been searching for. The only problem was that we were getting signed more on the basis of Bob's friendship with Jason Flom, and less on our talent and ability. Jason had already turned VR down before, and it was only Bob's influence that got him to give us another look. Jason offered us a 10 album deal that was very low risk for the label. Since no other labels were willing to sign us, we had no way to really negotiate with Atlantic for anything and they knew it. There was no bidding war going on in the industry for the rights to sign Vicious Rumors. We basically were offered a 'take it or leave it deal'. This may sound like crap, but we had no real options. We were able to get the deal down to 7 records instead of 10 (we wanted 5), but other then that, it was a done deal. We took solace in the fact that Atlantic was a big powerful label, and although it was a gamble, it could pay off for us big time since we new we were a great band and that we had a very strong belief in ourselves and our music.
Atlantic sent a rep out to see us play a show with Paul Stanley (who was on his solo club tour) in the spring of 89, and that basically sealed it. By the summer we had signed a 7 album world wide contract. Since we had no money up front from the label, this was definitely a case of "don't quit your day job". This was a no risk deal for Atlantic. If we were a bust and the records stiffed, they would just drop us and say they were not really that interested anyway, and if we broke through and sold a million records, they would probably take all the credit. Don't get me wrong, we were really excited with all of this going on. Sure, we would have liked to get a better deal with some up front money, but we knew that signing with a big time label like Atlantic was still a dream come true
We had a party and signed the contracts at Mexicali Rose Restaurant in Oakland,CA. This was a cool place that we would hang out at often since it is real close to our rehearsal studio. We all sat at a big table with our girlfriends and kids with us, had dinner, and passed around a bottle of wine as we signed the contracts (I have all this on video!). Welcome to the big leagues !/p>
The numbers are a bit vague to me after all this time, but I recall the deal with Atlantic was something like this: $35,000 for the recording budget on the first record, up $10,000 extra for each record that would follow. $25,000 for the first video, up $10,000 extra for the next video's, etc. We had a print ad budget, touring budget and so on. $35,000 may not seem like alot of money to make a record, but remember that we came from Shrapnel where we were on strict time and money constraints: SOTN was done for less then $10,000 at 108 hours, and DD was about $18,000 at 116 hours. We were not worried about the recording budget at all, since we had learned to work fast in the studio thanks to Mike Varney !/p>
This was a really great time for us, whenever we went out to the clubs and hung out, people would come up and give us high five's and say congratulations on the new deal!! I think many of the other local bands envied us and were jealous, but I don't think we ever really flaunted or boasted about what we were doing. We tried to keep ourselves level headed about the whole Atlantic situation and keep our feet on the ground. I must say though that all of us were really happy with this new opportunity and we did allow ourselves to dream of the possibilities of hitting the big time with the next record. I for one went shopping with my girlfriend Stephanie (future wife) for a live aboard yacht!! That was my dream, so if the money did come in, that is where my head was at !!
Other nice things started to happen once we got signed to a big label. With Mark's help, I signed an exclusive endorsement with Ibanez to play there basses. (Mark had been with them since 88) Geoff signed a deal with Jackson. I was given 2 LE828 basses and they made a Custom "Dave Starr" 8 string bass for me! We also signed deals with D'Addario strings, EMG pick-ups, Dimarzio pick-ups, and Pick-Boy picks. It was amazing how the free gear started to flow in once we signed to a major label. Ibanez had turned me down twice before in 87 and 88 when we were with Shrapnel.
VR entered Fantasy Studios in Berkeley Ca. the summer of 1989 to record our 3rd album, and the 1st for our new label Atlantic Records. As with the SOTN and DD records, we went in ready to rock with the tunes we wanted. We had no extra songs or throw aways, just 10 killer tracks.
The record was to be produced by Michael Rosen with the help of Geoff and Mark as co-producers. I had decided early on that I would stay the hell out of this one as far as the production and mixing goes thanks to my bad vibes with Geoff on the Digital Dictator mix down.
Making records can be fun to some, but I find it to be a really nerve racking and tiresome experience. I was going to concentrate only on my bass tracks, and then get the hell out of the studio!
Michael Rosen pushed me pretty hard at times on this record. I think I got along with him fine, but he was a real perfectionist and would spot flaws in some of my bass tracks making me go over and over until it was up to his standards. Several times I thought I was going to lose my temper with him, but I kept my cool. I thought I would have a song nailed down, only to hear him say over the headphones "You need to do this one again Dave." Once the record was done, I think Michael had made me a better musician and bassist.
Being the bass player was great because Larry and I got to do our tracks first, and as I recall - I think he and I were done with the bass and drums in about a week. I played one of my new Ibanez basses on most of the tracks, and I used an old Kramer 8 string on "Ship of Fools" and "Can You Hear It." I really love the 8 string bass and I wish I would have used it on more tunes with VR.
As usual, we were very tight and fast in the studio. Some of these songs we had been playing live for over a year, so all of the bugs had long been worked out. The record was almost called "Immortal Battalion," this was Geoff's idea and I thought it was a great name, but the consensus now was to call it simply "Vicious Rumors" since we would be heard by many people for the first time even though it would be our third album.
Geoff and Mark continued to write the bulk of the albums material along with Carl. Some of my favorite VR tunes came out on this record, "Ship of Fools" and "Can you hear It." These songs were great then and they still sound great ten years later. I suggested to Mark and Geoff that I play the harmony solo intro with them on "Ship," and I think it really added to the song. A controversy erupted over this song between Mark and I that I think you may find interesting...
I had shown Mark a guitar riff of mine several months earlier. He said it sounded good, but we never did anything with it. Mark ends up later writing "Ship" with a chorus part that sounds a lot like the riff I had shown him months before!! I confronted Mark about this, and he said I was crazy! He refused to change the part or give me a co-write credit on the song. I kept up a verbal war of words with him over this for a few months, and it was not resolved until after the album was recorded.
Geoff said he was tired of hearing us fighting about it, and he gave me a portion of his song writing credit on "Ship" to put the issue to rest. Very generous on Geoff's part I must say, but equally selfish on Mark's as well. Mark denies the plagiarism to this day, but the fact is that I got a co-write credit on "Ship Of Fools" and I have the publishing documents to back it up!
That minor episode aside, Mark and Geoff continued the VR tradition of great songs and equally great guitar work on this album. Kirk Hammett told me later that Geoff's solo on "Don't Wait" was amazing! Not to be out done, Mark kicked ass with great solo's and complex rhythm parts. His guitar solo's on "Ship" and "Down to the Temple" are two of my favorites. The "Down to the Temple" solo section always reminded me of the vibe on KK Downings "Sinner" solo from Judas priest.
Carl was his usual flawless self and set new standards for Rock/Metal vocalists that remain to this day. He improved on his already legendary Digital Dictator vocal work!
Larry has to be one of the fastest guys I have ever seen in the studio. Nerves of steel! He would usually nail the songs in one or two takes!
There were a few things on this album that I didn't like. One of them was the bass solo I did on "Thrill of the Hunt." I had a totally different idea when we did demos of this song. On the demo I played a 5 string Steinberger bass tuned to high B instead of low B. For the solo, I played it in the highest register possible using distortion and delay. I thought it was really cool, but I think Mark and Geoff thought I was trying to be a guitar player!
I still think the solo on the demo version sounds better then what I did on the album! Also, The bass was a little low in the mix overall on some parts of this record. I think Geoff's idea of hearing the bass is to have the bass control on his Marshall turned up to 10 ! All in all a great album that I am still proud of today.
The album was originally to be released in late 1989, but Atlantic ended up pushing it back until Feb. 1990. In the meantime, we did some more touring on the West coast to showcase the new songs, and we filmed the video for "Don't Wait For Me" in Hollywood Jan. of 1990.
Dave Starr 8-9-2000
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Vicious Rumors
Vicious Rumors Lyrics
Axe and Smash [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] Axe and smash eternal thri…
Can You Hear It? [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] You've always been the one…
Don't Wait For Me [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] It's time we had a talk. Y…
Down to the Temple [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] Running the distance Alive…
Hellraiser [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] I'm feeling razor sharp ri…
On The Edge [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] Pounding their way through…
Ship of Fools [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] The key to love is underst…
Thrill Of The Hunt [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] Sunday ride through the da…
World Church [Lyrics & Music: Vicious Rumors] Behold the keepers of tomo…