Hailing from the Canadian electronic underground, Ad·ver·sary is Jairus Kha… Read Full Bio ↴Hailing from the Canadian electronic underground, Ad·ver·sary is Jairus Khan. His remixes of Converter and Iszoloscope have enjoyed heavy club and airplay around the world, and he has provided North American tour support for Terrorfakt, Antigen Shift, Cyanotic, Adam X, and others. Fusing a variety of percussive styles with thick and organic soundscapes, Ad·ver·sary's sound is described by ReGen Magazine as "a balance between the brutal and the beautiful," and spans many genres (including ambient, rhythmic noise, aggro-industrial, and hard techno) as the music's focus is not an aesthetic, but a subject: conflict and power.

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Dresden
Ad·ver·sary Lyrics

We have lyrics for 'Dresden' by these artists:

Berserkr Young and old - husband and wife - child and…
Blumi In the great big house with wooden panels and high…
Bound for Glory DRESDEN February 13th, 1945 The destruction of a city, i…
Charlie Barnes ""Trumpets sounded last posts clear as bells whistles or day…
Cindy Alexander Lizard flicked his tongue at the chowder queen She was…
Cold Chisel The morning breeze is off and gone The winding factory stre…
Daily Terror Schweißgebadet ist der alte Mann erwacht Er durchlebt den Sc…
Dunkelwerk Sirene ruft zur Bombennacht! On silent wings they came. Weit…
Howlin' Circus I see it in your eyes I see it in your…

Left Unsaid He said, she said, we said It's complicated Sat down, what…
Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark Set the dials to overload My head is ready to explode I…
Pisse Die ganze innenstadt Alles hamse hübsch gemacht Gäste aus al…
Skull and Bones Dresden the mighty venice of north Architetural beauty all a…
Stuart Davis You people come here From hell and hinter To see the…
The Slow Show I'm sorry I'm leaving But I don't think I'm standing here …
UK Decay Dresden baby Where's the lesson to learn No source or…

Vampire Rodents Das henkersbeil Maushcenstil Ein trauerfall in der familie…

The lyrics are frequently found in the comments by searching or by filtering for lyric videos

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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

Dennis Weidner

@Thanos 6.0 Again: First think, then write. You don't seem to take your own advice.

1. "it was not America or Britain that started the war", well this wasn`t the decision-making of the civilians. Seriously, have you ever heard of a country that held a general public election that decided if your country should go to war? History Hustle even made a video about it, that the vast majority of people didn`t want war. --

You seem to have only a marginal knowledge of history. The American, British, and French publics had a huge impact on war policy. Are you unaware of appeasement and neutrality? These were policies adopted because the public was so opposed to war. Or the power of the isolation movement in America.

https://www.histclo.com/bio/c/ind/ch/chamb/app/appi.html

https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/ww2us-iso.html

2. "Many of the residents were N*zis", so if you believed in the N*zis is justified to get you redommly killed. Then we could also justify the H*l*caust of communists (sidenot: more people in history died because of communists then through N*zis. And thats not an opinion, its a fact). And first think about why so many germans were N*zis at that time. Very short and oversimplified answere: Desperation and "brainwashing" through propaganda. Heck, I am a guy who has friends with various skincolors and beliefs, but I think if I lived in Germany at that time I think I would have also been a N*zi. And again these were just civilians, they weren`t manning the gaschambers or were in the Einsatzgruppen. Those people who did, belong on court and then punnished. And the vast majority of germans of that time didn`t even know about the crimes except for some rumours, heck it even exists footage of shocked germans shown the dead bodies of CC.

>> My issue is thinking of all the people killed as innocents. Certainly, some were. Some were not such as all the groups I mentioned. And there were a considerable number. There was a largely spontaneous demonstration of support at the time of the July Bombing. There was also a substantial military presence. But except for the younger children, the people of Dresden were supporting the NAZI war effort, willingly or not.

3. "They were working for an evil regime". You watch to mutch television, such stuff like "good and evil" just exists in movies. They were working for their country to support the war effort, but you were still a civilian who was going to work like to feed your family home. That has nothing to do with good and evil. And yes many civilians over the course of the war supported the war effort, but they didn`t do it because "they were evil" but because of patriotism towards their country, like it was the case in every country at war.

>> Evil was not just a Hollywood invention. It was all too real. In fact, Hollywood then and now does not fully depict the absolute evil of National Socialism. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tol/ger/crime/nazi-crime.html

4. Your entire argument can be summed up in one sentence "many of them were evil and deserved to die", well then you are no better then N*zi war criminals since they also saw their victims (jews etc) as an evil threat that deserved to die.

>> That was not my entire argument. My comments werewas related to the claim that the people in Dresden were innocents. Combined with fact that non one in the Reich could avoid supporting the war effort whether they wanted to or not. And remember, it as theGermans that wanted the War and ultimately Total War.

And there were legitimate reasons for bombing Dresden. It was a large city. It had war industries. There was a substantial garrison. And it was a transportation hub at a time that Enigma decrypts were reporting German troop movements to reinforce the Western Front.

5. It actually was 40 Million

>> The creditable reports I have seen give 25-40 million. I have no way of knowing which is correct. And I suspect you do not either. Listen I see Dresden as a great tragedy and have no interest in diminishing the tragedy. But it was one of many tragedies, most committed by the Germans in the occupied. countries. Some 0.5 million Germans were killed in the strategic bombing campaign. Over 25 million people were killed in the Soviet Union alone. I wonder if you are as concerned about the victims of National Socialism as you are aout the Germans. Your answer to number 3 suggests that you are not.

Héctor Manuel Cabral Betancor

Hi again, Stefan!

Once else, good work, as usual!

Good combination of images on location, besides some extract of a black-and-white Allied propaganda film, and further colour and black-and-white images and book quotations!

Going back to the issue to be dealt with, on the one hand, such a bombing was part of a way of intense and harsh pressure on Nazi German regime so it eventually surrendered.
On the other hand, it may be actually regarded as a horrid crime. Too many people perished in such a way that sometimes people talk about a punishment of Biblical proportions. As it seemed to be so.

In Sir Arthur Harris’ opinion, the massive aerial bombing on enemy cities, not only on targets of certain military value, might force an eventual and fairly massive desire for resignation though a provoked psychological suffering through which people, regardless of military and/or civilian, would finally give up.

Eventually, of course, he was totally wrong.

Individuals may become partial or totally ruined, physical and psychologically speaking by a massive aerial bombing.

But unhinging the spirit of an entire nation, regardless of being friend or foe, is difficult.

The same Germans, some time before, had failed to subdue the British by massive aerial bombardment. Despite the heavy human and material losses.

I agree Antony Beevor’s statement in his book, where he says the Luftwaffe caused still far more victims, especially in the East, than the Allied air forces.

“Unsere Mauern brachen, aber unsere Herzen nicht!” ( Our walls broke, but our hearts didn't!) Such was the German official slogan place on many rubbles.

And the British RAF Avro Lancasters weren’t even bombing safely. The Luftwaffe, as you’ll know, had night fighters as well. So it kept on fighting, however weakened it might be by then, till its very end. The bitter end.

Till its official resurrection years later in the then West Germany in 1955, as part of the Bundeswehr and under NATO rule.

Well donce once else, Stefan!

See you then on next Saturday!

Who else could accompany you throughout Europe …

Watch out for the virus!

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

Poland's only sensible option in 1918/19 was to acknowledge the Biblical standpoint of "to do onto others" and admit letting bygones be bygones, then accept that Poland is where Poles lived (or people, who by own choice wished to be Polish citizens) and draw a line aka "border" around these volunteers...

Polish leaders didn't, became a tool of empires, and set off for Intermarium lebenstraum glory....

They invaded their neighbours (newly independent Ukraine), later using the dubious "we need a buffer zone"-excuse.
Whatever excuses one makes, it doesn't change the Biblical wisdom of "reap as you sow". Twenty years later Stalin wanted this "buffer zone" back and made a little deal with the Nazis...

Oh.
And your so-called "best friends" in London and Paris? What did they do to help you in 1939, and again in 1944?
Correct: nothing.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑3

Dresden was just a tiny piece in the puzzle called the big picture.

Men like Churchill and Harris gave into their dark side: they thought that by eclipsing the age-old Policy of Balance of Power and totally destroying Germany would leave a "Big Three" to rule the world.

They couldn't have been more wrong.
Both The American Century advocates, as well as Stalin and the communist "friends" (lol) in Moscow, had no intention of accommodating an already crumbling "British Empire".

I have no idea whether Roosevelt was in The American Century "old boys club", but I assume he was. Whatever, he was a "navy guy".
So he knew how these things work...

So totally bankrupt GB went from the unmistakable nr.1 at the turn of the century (1900), down to on par with the USA after WW1, down to 3rd fiddle during the Cold War...

The price tag for totally flattening Germany came after the war.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑3

So British leaders bombed the British Empire into ruin.

"At the end of the war, Britain, physically devastated and financially bankrupt, lacked factories to produce goods for rebuilding, the materials to rebuild the factories or purchase the machines to fill them, or with the money to pay for any of it. Britain’s situation was so dire, the government sent the economist John Maynard Keynes with a delegation to the US to beg for financial assistance, claiming that Britain was facing a "financial Dunkirk”. The Americans were willing to do so, on one condition: They would supply Britain with the financing, goods and materials to rebuild itself, but dictated that Britain must first eliminate those Sterling Balances by repudiating all its debts to its colonies. The alternative was to receive neither assistance nor credit from the US. Britain, impoverished and in debt, with no natural resources and no credit or ability to pay, had little choice but to capitulate. And of course with all receivables cancelled and since the US could produce today, those colonial nations had no further reason for refusing manufactured goods from the US. The strategy was successful. By the time Britain rebuilt itself, the US had more or less captured all of Britain’s former colonial markets, and for some time after the war’s end the US was manufacturing more than 50% of everything produced in the world. And that was the end of the British Empire, and the beginning of the last stage of America’s rise."
[globalresearch(dot)ca/save-queen/5693500]
How'd that work out after WW2?
Brits being squeezed like a lemon by US banks, having their Pound crushed by the US dominated IMF, being refused the mutually developed nukes to act as a deterrent against the SU's expansion, munching on war rations till way into the 1950s, losing the Suez Canal in a final attempt at "acting tough" and imposing hegemony over a vital sphere of interest...and going under...lol, "third fiddle" in the "Concerto de Cold War"...
Maybe they should have informed themselves how "empires" tick, because there was another "ring".

A "ring which ruled them all".
The American Century.
Sorreeee. That's what happens when you make the wrong "fwiends".

So they woke up one morning, only to discover that their "best fwiends forever" had stolen all their markets.

Nice exchange.
The current generation of kids can chant "Bomber Harris do it again" for all eternity.
It only cost the Brits their Empire...
Seems like a fair deal.

Elmsfeuer

2y↑1

Like every one a good Video.
Additional I want to say (I am sure, you know, but News to reduce that)

Already in the 1930 Arthur Harris praised the Air bombing strategy against surveillant arabians, that in a Single attak 30 percent of the people are ready or injured, that the rest of the tribe need the help of the others and will break off the survillance.

Also in ww1 the Zeppelins bombed british towns and smaller Air raids by planes took place on all sites of the western front.

Terence Hill survived the bombing of Dresden as a small child.

And the today maybe the most important case is, that the destroyed Frauenkirche as a Symbol ob the bombings was resurrected in large share by donations from people of ex enemy countries. ❤️

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

Dresden is just a tiny piece in the puzzle called "the big picture".

The question why it took GB 7 years after WW2, to carry out their 1st nuclear test, even though the technology had already been developed by international scientist (also British) before 1945.

Because its the American Century for those who walk the corridors of power, and fairy tales of the "Big Three" and "cute Uncle Joe" for those who don't understand how the world really works...

Because in WW2 the concept of "a Big Three" was a joke, because the "big three" were not only allies, but also rivals.
Each wanting to be on top once the war was over...

At the turn of the century, nothing symbolized power and rule like the big gun battleships, and by 1945 nothing symbolized power and rule like the mushroom cloud of a nuke...

But while at the end of WW1 the powers got together and divided and negotiated who would get what share of the "symbol of power (Washington Naval Treaty, 1922), at the end of WW2, there would be no such negotiations.
Strange...
Big daddy USA said to the rest of the world "you shall not have nuclear weapons!"
[Google how that unfolded with: "history/british-nuclear-program]

Strange, how "best friend forever" would let the financially drained GB spend 5 years and millions of Pounds on developing a weapon for themselves which was already completed in development...and just had to be handed over to "a friend"...

Strange also, that during WW2 GB merrily gave their "special friend" all the best war-winning secrets (Tizzard Committee, and all that), but when it became time for the "new best friend" to return the favor, and give the secret of nuclear arms back to GB whose scientists had helped develop nukes in the USA, the answer was "no, it's mine".

1945 Washington DC: "If you want nukes, develop them yourself. In the meantime, I'll dismantle your empire. What are you going to do about it?"
That's how leverage works.
Rule Britannia, replaced by the American Century.
Pax Britannica, replaced by Pax Americana.

Why didn't Washington DC/The American Century give their "special friends" the secret of nuclear bombs in 1945?

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

"Right or wrong", or "Was it a war crime", or "Who started", is all irrelevant.
Our elites have divided us "commoners" and "grunts", and are agitating behind closed doors, while we do the squabbling...

Because there's always a big picture...
And of all the "big pictures", this is the biggest of all...
The worst choice of all was ignoring the reality of how Europe had been "set up" to protect the British Empire.
The British Empire was actually protected in Europe by uniquely "balancing powers" on the continent.
[Google: britannica & balance-of-power]
For more than 100 years, "balancing powers" on the continent, kept these powers opposing each other, unable to divert military or economic resources to affront the status of the British Empire as the nr.1 in the world...

According to the logic of this policy, completely ruining a power on the continent, would lead to an imbalance, which could then be directed at the British Empire...
Therefore, totally destroying Germany was neither wise nor in GB 's interests.

Concerning WW2.
Firstly, a 100% collapse of Germany as a power...was a dream condition for communism (Moscow) and US corporatism (Washington D.C.).

After WW2, there was no strong Central Europe to "balance out" the rise of communism (Moscow).
France broken, still angered by Mers el Kebir and slipped under Washington's wings...
Germany = alles kaputt
Eastern Europe = overrun by the commies...

GB was no longer the boss.
Nothing left to play "balancing games" with...
Sorreee. That's just how it goes if your eternal "balancing" games on the continent go south...you loose your empire to the new kids in town...
From the unmistakable "Nr.1" in 1900, down to "merely on par" with Washington DC after WW1, down to "third fiddle" during the Cold War. All in less than a single lifetime...

Washington got tired of bailing GB out, and decided to become the "balancer of powers" in Europe herself. The world was divided in "East" and "West".

And down went the British Empire too...

People, don't waste your time arguing with immoral people.
Simply tell them the outcome of own actions.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

@History Hustle Finally.
In evidence to support the above theory that the entire reasoning behind "Area Bombing" was to remove Germany as a "power" in the Balance of Power scheme of things.

Usually the rhetoric justifying intentionally targeting civilians in city centers goes along the lines of "..but how much stronger would Germany have been?'
That is not a rhetorical question.
The objective of the rhetorical question is to place an opposing view under pressure, by asking a question to which would reveal a weakness in the opposing side's logic.
In this case, it not a successful example of rhetoric, because the answer is simple.

German production was limited by resources.
No Bauxite = no aluminum
No Nickel = no armor
No Chrome = no high grade steel
No tungsten = no tools
No rubber = no tires for trucks
No oil = no mobile warfare.

German production would not have been significantly higher, because they did not have the raw materials, or access to those places in the world which had these resources. Anybody who states that 'German production would have been higher', should also follow it up with a full assessment of where the extra raw materials for a higher production would have come from, and more importantly, the oil to fuel the weapons of warfare (tanks, planes, artillery tractors, etc.)

Evidence for the above? WW1. There was no strategic bombing, and the Allies outproduced Germany/Austria-Hungary easily.

German production came to a standstill around early 1945, when advancing ground forces cut off the last remaining connections to the sources of raw materials.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

@History Hustle Churchill stated that "the best argument against democracy is a five minute chat with the average voter", meaning that he basically told every Brit that he thought they weren't smart enough to realize how the leadership had ruined the British Empire, with an outrageously expensive effort to "flatten Germany".

Google, download and read:
BRITAIN 1939 – 1945: THE ECONOMIC COST OF STRATEGIC BOMBING
One can spend a few hours reading this, or I'll condense it into a few short lines:
The same people who started terror bombing civilians on a grand scale in Mesototamia in the 1920s (Churchill/Portal/Harris) thought that all one needed to do to "win" was to scale up the terror.
[Google: bbc(dot)com/news/magazine-29441383]

End effect = they also "scaled up" the costs, and bombed their beautiful "empire" into financial oblivion, with little real effect for the soldiers on the front lines.

The resources wasted (between a third and half, depending on the criterea used) on "flattening Germany" during WW2 was not available to stand up to Communism and The American Century after the war was over and down went London's interests.

If one needs to "sow" a 10-fold level of death and terror as "revenge", then there'll be a higher order that states that you'll "reap" the end of the own beautiful empire...

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

@History Hustle In February 1942, the decision was taken to "flatten Germany".
That came with a price tag GB could not burden.
End effect? Bankruptcy.
Outcome? After WW2, GB could no longer stand up against its rivals, Washington DC (yup, it was a rival for markets) the commies in Moscow.

Winston "expire the Empire" Churchill...
...teamed up with....
Bomber "burnt the Pound Stirling in a whirlwind" Harris...

What could possibly go wrong?
Oh yeah, you lose your "empire".

One nation's leaders chose to answer with "more than the measure", and as a result bombed themselves into financial and economic ruin...
Too bad they didn't read their Bibles, where it says "an eye for an eye"...

Quote: "The findings are that the strategic air offensive cost Britain £2.78 billion, equating to an average cost of £2,911.00 for every operational sortie flown by Bomber Command or £5,914.00 for every Germany civilian killed by aerial bombing. The conclusion reached is the damage inflicted upon Germany by the strategic air offensive imposed a very heavy financial burden on Britain that she could not afford and this burden was a major contributor to Britain's post-war impoverishment."
[Google "GB 1939-45: the financial costs of strategic bombing"]
Note: an average house in London cost around 3,000 Pounds in 1944]

Imagine that.
A house in London, for every "Oma Schickelgruber" killed in Germany.
Lose your Empire, and then some...
Too bad.
Should've read their Bibles...
"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".
It doesn't say "more than the measure".

Gentil Chat

The Second world war is the gretaest tragedy in mankind history

i can't get over this warn we will never do

just by looking at dresen
is like hiroshima

after the atomic bomb

all that
to scare people nad make them surrender quicker
while the war was already over

All comments from YouTube:

History Hustle

3y↑12

WHY GERMANY FOUGHT TILL THE LAST MAN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_g1QpEtkLI
THE LAST GERMAN ARMY - THE VOLKSSTURM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UxmljU6OK8
GERMAN WONDER WEAPONS OF WW2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1BQx17tXw
LAST DITCH GERMAN FIREARMS OF WW2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIT13rNzHNo

Wolfgang Pagel

@John Henni business as usual

Bubi Ruski

3y↑2

@EE Dragon r Thanks for sharing !
It should also be noted that allied bombing killed more than 70k French civilians.
This is a lot more than Fnglish were killed due to German bombing.
The Fnglish never cared about loss of human life !

EE Dragon r

For everybody may be interesting to search for the destruction of Royan, France.

Wolfgang Pagel

3y↑1

@Zosimus2.18 I Do you really think that there are not enough videos about Stalingrad? Or did you take sides and this one is uncomfortable for you?

Zosimus2.18 I

My answer is legitimate!

6 More Replies...

Always Right

3y↑56

From 1943 on, my father was detained in a POW camp (Stalag IV-a Hohnstein) in the close vicinity of the town after being captured by the SD in the Netherlands. Since he was a firefighter by profession and knew first aid (which actually saved his life since he would have been executed otherwise), he was deployed as a medic in one of the military hospitals that were located in Dresden for treating wounded soldiers returning from the Eastern Front. He was in the midst of the bombardment and despite his hatred for the Germans in general and Nazis in particular, he helped fighting the fires and the resulting firestorm and went through the horrors of the bombardment and its aftermath. Until his death in 1977, he had vivid nightmares that regularly brought him back to this terrible episode of his life.

Ann Williams

2y↑1

My father was also a POW near Dresden. He had been captured in North Africa and transported to Italy and, after the capitulation, was marched with the other prisoners through the Brenner Pass and on go Dresden. He was there when the city was bombed. The POWs were sent into the city to search for survivors and then build the pyres to burn the bodies. The sights and sounds remained with him the rest of his life. There is an interesting book which gives a fictionalised view of an American POW living through the bombing - Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegut. There is also the Len Deighton book, although not specifically about Dresden, looks at the bombing of a city as the day progresses and from both sides. It was broadcast on BBC Radio 4 in 1995 and took place in ‘real time’ through out the day. It was repeated on Armistice Day 2011. I defy anyone not to be moved by it!

Always Right

@John Henni Treated is not the right word. He was imprisoned and was forced at gunpoint; they could have taken him out any time. He took every opportunity to make life of his his patients (especially in case of SS-soldiers being wounded at the Eastern front) as miserably as posible, e.g. by carrying them from stairs on stretchers head first after surgery. That did not become them very well. Guess you would have taken the bullit yourself, right? You would be the perfect (dead) hero but hey, that story would aad up..

Dennis Weidner

@John Henni Sure, no one likes being occupied, but then they shouldn't have started the war and committed terrible atrocities in the countries they occupied. I agree that fear of Soviet occupation was a strong factor, given the enormities of the crimes committed in the East. But this was not the only factor. The NAZIs had made a huge issue of the 1918 Armistice. So there was not going to be any surrender until the German people knew that they had been defeated. There was also a virtual mystical relation with Hitler that only ended with his defeat. Notice that the Germans fought in both the West and East, although the fight was primarily in the East at the end. Also, the many Germans who supported Hitler had committed a wide range of crimes and were afraid of what would happen to them if Germany lost the War.

Dennis Weidner

@John Henni Bull?? Why are you so anxious to dismiss the views of others. Do you consider yourself an oracle of the truth? Why the German continued to fight is a legitimate topic. And while they continued to fight and kill Allied soldiers, the Allies had every right to use the massive forces they assembled. And remember it was the Germans who started the War and it was the German who began bombing civilians. Dresden was a tragedy, but it has to be noted that the number of German civilians who were killed in the war was a VERY small fraction of the civilians the Germans killed. In fact, killing civilians was a major German war goal. They were trying to change the demographic map of Europe by mass murder. Read about Generalplam Ost. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/leb/east/sov/es-gpe.html

Dennis Weidner

@John Henni How Woke. Dismiss the facts and attack the other person's morality.

12 More Replies...

Moritz Faßbender

3y↑42

My Grandpa lived in a tiny Village near Dresden and told me about the night Dresden burned to ashes. At the afternoon he saw the first bombers comin...and in the evening he went on the balcony because He could not sleep, frome there he saw Dresden 7miles away burning and it looked like the sun crushed on earth and he felt the warm winds blowing in his face. Many Friends of him, and their familys died in this night. I don't want any Grandpa need to tell storys like that his grandson with tears in his eyes. I want a peaceful world, war is the most unnecessary thing in this world.

Reginald

Wow my grandpa told me the same he lived in Weixdorf and yours? (You don’t have to say it)

Dennis Weidner

@oktfg While I agree with some of what you say I do not agree with the 'mistakingly' bit. And you kind of gloss over two little facts:

1. The NAZIs and Soviets launched the War as a joint enterprise and were allies for nearly 2 years. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/camp/axis/ns-coop.html

2. It was not just the NAZIs committing terrible atrocities the Soviet Union also slaughtered people. The NKVD and SS were very similar.https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/wca/ww2-wca.html

oktfg

You and your grandfather should be grateful for the forgiveness the western allies mistakenly showed you. Your right to exist ended at Stalingrad. Had the Soviet plan been adopted after the war we Russians would of avenged our fallen, and the millions of innocent races you slaughtered. The debt you owe can never be repaid

Dennis Weidner

@Thanos 6.0 I was addressing your point suggesting that the public had no say in war and peace to point out in a democracy they have a great deal to say.

Dennis Weidner

14 More Replies...

Yo-yo Ma

3y↑10

It’s great seeing topics such as this covered. I think, especially in my education (English) we are taught that the allies were basically the good guys, we were constantly told of the brutalities by the Germans, Italians and Japanese but never shown the horrific things we afflicted onto the civilians of those countries.

A war-crime is a war-crime.

Dennis Weidner

@Gene Whitman Absolutely correct. Yo Yo Ma's math teachers have a great deal to answer for.

Dennis Weidner

@Yo-yo Ma You must have not done very well in your math classes. Some 50 million people died in World War II--the vast majority were in countries attacked by Germany and Japan--especially China and the Soviet Union..

Dennis Weidner

@History Hustle Nonsense. Do you really think that the Allies should have refrained from strategic bombing after Germany and Japan began bombing cities?

Gene Whitman

3y↑2

@Yo-yo Ma The German people in no way suffered as much under the Nazis as others. No way.

Gene Whitman

3y↑2

Compared to the Axis, the allies were more often than not the good guys.

3 More Replies...

Zaggie Jwz

3y↑56

War is war the innocent will always pay the highest price

WaffleCopter

@Alter Kooper you are just as evil as you believe them to be if you think killing an entire city of civilians is justified

Albert Marnell

@Alter Kooper What would you know about them? I knew the WW l German generation very well. There is no way you would understand them or how many of them had suffered so much or lost loved ones during WW l. Then that stupid Treaty of Versailles that even John Maynard Keynes criticized in The Economic Consequences of the Peace, published in December 1919, Keynes predicted that the stiff war reparations and other harsh terms imposed on Germany by the treaty would lead to the financial collapse of the country, which in turn would have serious economic and political repercussions on Europe and the world. How would England like to be divided in the middle or the U.S. or Canada? Then all of the other exploitation by the allies after WW l. So you knew all the German civilians? I did not even know them all but they all were very different. You've been propagandized. The allies understood what the Germans were dealing with after Russia got its share of Europe. But they could not say so. BTW, most of the military operations and camps were highly secretive. You can ask all of my dead relatives on my mother's side that lived through WW l or were born after WW l. I asked them. They all had a different response.

Jupp Rheinland

3y↑1

@Mark Collins Nobody broke Hitler except himself otherwise the war would’ve been over earlier and millions of innocent people across Europe maybe would’ve survived. He didn’t care that much for his own people just look up his last orders regarding destruction of all infrastructure in Germany - Speer later said he disobeyed because of humanity but I think he only did it to built up his image as the good nazi otherwise he wouldn’t have extended the inhumane use of slave Labour to fire up the war industry during the war or the expropriation of Jews and political enemies before the war to build „Germania“.

Bombing civilians isn’t always this effective, neither did the German will broke under the thousands of bombing carpets, nor did the brits will broke because of bombings by bombers and rockets. The will breaks when the opponent reaches your area and marks a constant threat, when hiding in a bunker for 20 - 30 minutes isn’t a solution anymore. Another aspect is that soldiers kept fighting to buy time for fellow soldiers and civilians, so that they can retreat into the west.

The relation between the first quote u made and ur answer is sth u have to explain to me because there is no real correlation. It should be obvious that I meant the terror against the own people in Germany (dehumanizing of Jews, elimination or interrogation of communists, social democrats, liberals, journalists, artists, teachers, priests, intellectuals and so on). I know that terror in the Eastern European countries began nearly immediately when the invasions began, so what?

Mark Collins

3y↑2

@Jupp Rheinland "Nazis began slowly with their terror."
Really, tell that to those poor people in Russia during that time who had to turn to cannibalism due to the invasion. Some disturbing memoirs to read on the internet if you want a refresh of that.

"that the number, of German listeners to BBC, increased during the war. "
If Hitler won those supporters are all dead, those innocents in Dresdan, Hitler already has that population in its camps in Asia in a few years. I think those innocent people would rather choose Death than being forced into manual labour and kill people for a living, we put a stop to that with morale destroying bombing which wasn't against the civilians, but against Hitler's morale.

I think we broke Hitler, don't you?

Kampfgruppe Peiper

3y↑2

@Jupp Rheinland well said 👍🏻

8 More Replies...

Nico Nesta

3y↑3

You bring it so objectively covering both sides. Esp for ww2 that is such a rarity. You are a history hero my friend!

History Hustle

Thanks again for your kind words.

Marcos Kehl

3y↑5

The most visceral historic book I read about the bombardment over Germany, was "The Fire: The Bombing of Germany, 1940-1945" , written by Jörg Friedrich.
Thank you!

History Hustle

3y↑2

Thanks for the tip!

Comrade Corbyn

3y↑31

Many people miss the fact that Bombing during those times was extremely inaccurate. There was no fancy computer targeting or Laser Guidance, it was all done by just dropping a bomb and letting Gravity do the work with a rough estimation of where the bomb will fall through Bomber Sights which themselves weren't that accurate to begin with. That's why Carpet bombing was a thing, drop a shit load of bombs and hope some hit the intended target.

As for if it was a War Crime, Dresden was a crucial Railway link that transported troops and supplies to the Eastern Front, and contained several Weapon and Ammunition factories. It was as legit a target as you could find. It is a shame that 40,000 people died during the air raid, but even if the bombing shortened the War by a week that's still over 80,000 less people dead going by daily casualties on the Eastern Front at the time.

christophera556

3y↑1

Yes Dresden was a legitimate target and yes bombing from the air in 1945 was very inaccurate as for the thousands of civilian casualties at the end of the day the German population had supported a genocidal maniac who had by 1945 had caused the deaths of tens of millions so the Germans have themselves to blame for allied bombing and flattening of their country basically they were given some of their own medicine.

Wolfgang Pagel

@Fritz Kralle Nein, ich glaube das hat nichts miteinander zu tun. Und natürlich hat "wurden genutzt für" nicht dieselbe Qualität wie "wurden designed für" (also dafür entwickelt).

19 More Replies...

JoeJ94611

3y↑15

The history hustler has a better command of English as a second language than I do(English is my native language).

History Hustle

3y↑3

🤓👍

Terry Richard

3y↑3

My father was a POW who after spending 2 1/2 months in 2 German hospitals was moved to a camp near Dresden... was part of a POW cleanup crew for Dresden. He was ultimately freed by Russians and repatriated in 1946.

History Hustle

Many thanks for sharing!

Terry Richard

3y↑2

He was in the Battle of the Bulge. Germans surprised his unit... killed most of his unit. He was machine gunned... four bullets. Three were removed by German doctors. One was left in him as it was close to his heart. He died in 66' stiil with that bullet in him. Saw an Xray once and it was huge. He was bombed out of 2 hospitals by American planes trying to bomb a munitions factory... said it was the scariest moments of the war for him. Also recuperated in the first hospital next to a German pilot.. who in 1958 came to HoustonTX to visit my Dad(in his uniform)

History Hustle

3y↑1

Very interesting, what else can you tell us about his experiences? How did he reflect on the war? Thanks for sharing.

Andy Manning

3y↑3

Thank you for this balanced video,evidence over emotion.I and a Russian friend were due to visit Dresden this summer,but of course `other events ` have taken over preventing travel.Hope we shall get there in 2021

History Hustle

👍

Andy Manning

@Zosimus2.18 I thx u for the tip,if the suggestion was aimed at me.I was planning to visit a friend in SPB next year,if travel permitted of course.Then meet up with a friend in Volgograd after.If you have any further tips,i would appreciate it..

Zosimus2.18 I

I suggest you to visit the WWII semetery in St. Petersburg in Russia. It will balance you even more.

Mark Axworthy

3y↑7

Florence of the Elbe? The Italians declared the actual Florence an Open City, but the Germans ignored it and moved troops through. Germany could have declared Dresden an Open City, but did not.

Dennis Weidner

@ Mark Axworthy Absolutely correct.

History Hustle

3y↑1

I see.

David Jones

3y↑5

Great video. When I first moved to the Czech Republic, I lived in Liberec and had to go to Dresden a few times to handle visa issues. Later, I would very simply for pleasure. I really like this city and miss visiting there since moving further away. Keep putting out these videos 👍

Takashi Tamagawa

3y↑1

I remember a British author writing about the bombing of Dresden saying that he preferred to stay in Prague while doing research in the area because the look of that city felt closer to that of pre-war Dresden than did that of the rebuilt city.

Wolfgang Pagel

@The Truth Since 1949 the Germans of Czech are disappeared. When he lived there the people speak Czech language. It only makes sense to call the town Reichenberg to the Germans.

History Hustle

Thanks 👍

Big JJ

3y↑11

"25,000 casualties" no my friend how do you do account for the thousands fleeing from the Soviet army who where in Dresden at the time. It was a War Crime by the Allies, despite the many war crimes perputuated by the Nazi system in the territories of the Soviet Union the Allies brought themselves to the level of the Nazies with this action. Read" Slaugheter House Five" or the fact that bomber command did not receive a medal until the 21st centurary a blatant attempt to rewrite histroy. I really like your vblogs keep up the good work!

nparsona

@Wolfgang Pagel Seriously? Are you also a holocaust denier?

Wolfgang Pagel

3y↑1

@Brenden Malloy There is no context for crimes. A murderer is guilty no matter of context.

Wolfgang Pagel

3y↑3

@Brenden Malloy Your opinion is pure fiction. You argue with the intention to picture die breaking of the rule to be the rule. If I nuke your country I safe a lot of lifes because nobody fights back and your people are evil anyway. Every of your ideas why the crime might be legitimate is made up and die not happen. Of course it could always be argued both ways. But countries are not like criminals innocent until proven guilty because the winner of the war does not let the victim blame him. He is always right. The UK changed its opinion why they were fighting a war several times during that war. There was no feeling that they would be held accountable and so they acted without restrictions. It is a matter of honesty today to say that a crime is a crime, even when it is comitted by the "good guy", who in fact had initiated the whole war behind the scenes.

Brenden Malloy

3y↑2

But a science fiction is still not a legitimate source for historical research. The fact of the matter is the bombing of Dresden can be argued as both a legitimate target and a war crime. The video states this by the evidence he presents very well. In the larger picture, the Dresden bombing sent many of the refugees that were rushing to that area out on the street slowing up troop movements for the Germans. In the wider context of the war, the Dresden bombing was legitimate especially in the sense that the allies were getting frustrated and wanted to end the war. What happens though is people take this bombing completely out of the context of the war to paint the picture of the Germans being the victims of allied terror..... the same can be said in the Pacific. The bombing of Japan is completely taken out of the context of the war in order to make the the allies look like they are the true monsters.

6 More Replies...

Héctor Manuel Cabral Betancor

History Hustle

3y↑1

Thanks for taking the time to share your insights one again, Héctor.

Nelson

3y↑6

And of course the sieges of Leningrad and Stalingrad, etc. those cities were also reduced to rubble.

History Hustle

3y↑3

True. I mention the Eastern Front.

1 More Replies...

Mammuchan

3y↑13

“Those who have unlearned how to cry,” lamented Nobel Prize recipient and Prussian dramatist Gerhart Hauptmann, “will learn it afresh on the destruction of Dresden.”

History Hustle

3y↑1

Interesting quote.

Parminder Singh

3y↑15

Diseases like typhus,etc,starvation by lack of food occurred and bombing too effected German people.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@Pak PakAbsolutely it is.

simplicius

@History Hustle "especially in the Soviet zones"

The Soviet zone was much better supplied than the American, British or French.

Pak Pak

3y↑12

@History Hustle They organized food supplies by stealing food from other countries, like Ukraine, Greece, Netherlands etc. where people did starve. I feel that is important to mention.

History Hustle

3y↑4

Actually massive starvation didn't occur within the Reich since they organized their food supplies well. It did occur after the war was over, especially in the Soviet zones.

Takashi Tamagawa

3y↑1

A large part of the Dresden bombing controversy arises from the fact that it occurred so late in the war. The idea of burning German city centers to win the war was not ever universally accepted among military and civilian leaders. But Hamburg, which was an even bigger and deadlier firestorm, never raised the level of outrage that Dresden did in large part of the fact that it had occurred in 1943, with no allied troops yet on German soil, with German troops still deep inside the Soviet Union, Italy still in the war, and the Battle of the Atlantic still raging at sea. By the autumn of 1944 it was questionable what "area bombing" of German cities was going to accomplish in bringing the war to an end. That ultimate objective had to be accomplished by ground forces.

History Hustle

3y↑1

The bombing of Dresden to this day causes discussions. A polarized subject this seems to be. History is about exploring the details. You can consider it a science. It can also be a moral compass. One could argue that the allies had "the right" to take revenge on the Germans by bombing them. I refrain from such statements. I do not believe in revenge. I explain it as why it happened. Therefore it can be understood. Whether a person then states this was 'the right thing' is up to him or her. Of course, if Hitler hadn't started WW2 the bombing would have never occurred.

iain ridley

3y↑14

Hi I’m from Coventry, I love your channel. Dresden is our twin city, we do school exchanges with Dresden, due to the severity of each other’s bombing. War is wrong, no matter what! I invite you to Coventry there’s a lot of history here and stories behind the blitz we had.

iain ridley

3y↑1

@Dennis Weidner Why are you telling a Jew how many died and about Israel? I am Jewish. You are still misinterpreting my quote for your own bile. War is never necessary, the spirit of it remains it has one end. WW2 began not because of the holocaust or the war crimes of the Nazi's, but over alliances and diplomatic failures, the nazi's could of been defeated before the war even began. No one argues that defeating the German's was a goal that needed to happen. Simply being black and white about something so complex is obtuse, reactionary and part of the reason why we still use primitive rage to solve our differences.

Dennis Weidner

@iain ridley I simply quoted you. It was an EXACT QUOTE without any twist at all. Six million Jews were murdered by the NAZIs. Six million Jews survived, but only because the Allies waged a relentless war against the NAZIs. Abd Israel survives today, only because it fought back and waged war when attacked. I did not accuse you of being a NAZI. But I do believe that anyone who could resist and did not was morally deficient. I find it offensive to suggest that the men and women who fought the NAZs were wrong in doing so. Those are your words, not mine..

iain ridley

@Dennis Weidner you’ve twisted my words and meanings behind them, half my family are Jewish and I’m not a Nazi. I won’t be replying to anymore of your comments, I find your tone and suggestion offensive.

iain ridley

@History Hustle no worries I love history and your channel is great, if you ever want to do a story on Coventry I’ll be happy to be your guide

3 More Replies...

Ronald Schwartz

3y↑8

Had the allies not fought to win this war, my mother in the Netherlands and father in the Dutch East Indies may not have survived the axis powers' war on peace.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Ronald Schwartz Absolutely. Had America not dropped the atomic bombs, none of the POWs or civilian internees would have survived the War.

Ronald Schwartz

3y↑2

I actually don't wave flags. I find that form of nationalism disturbing because of what I have learned from history and what I know of human nature. My grandparents in Holland hid people in their attic in order to preserve their lives and my grandfather also altered documents to accomplish the same. A neighbor ratted out my grandparents for the fact that they were hiding someone... which is the type of hate that I believe nationalism fosters. I consider myself a citizen of the world and I'm willing to cheer for everyone.

History Hustle

Thanks for sharing.

Mowana123

3y↑4

My father was born in 1937 and lived through the war in Berlin as a small child. He told me he remembers it as a time of being constantly hungry, sitting in bunkers more often than not, and being afraid that he would end up as an orphan. He never blamed the allies though, but saw the Nazis as solely responsible. Who sows storm will reap the wind. Germans of that time are often portrayed as all being blind Nazi supporters. I think that's actually dangerous and neglects the fact that you can turn a country into a totalitarian nightmare even if you only win 33% of the vote, like the NSDAP did in November 1932. 67% of Germans did not vote for Hitler. Yet in a couple of months, he gained absolute power, controlled the media, and any opposition was brutally suppressed. People see the old Nazi propaganda films of ecstatic supporters doing the Hitler salute. What you don't see, are those that stayed at home, were in exile, or in Gestapo cells. I don't want to downplay the support he received, but at the same time I feel that the others deserve a voice as well.

History Hustle

Thanks for sharing.

1 More Replies...

Gra Agr

3y↑6

Well, it depends what country you come from. As to me, I´m crying more about Warsaw than Dresden. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Gra Agr You do not have to be from Poland to agree with that.

Gra Agr

3y↑4

@Ralph Bernhard I´m not analyzing the situation that deeply. I´m just thinking about my mother, grandmother and my other relatives who were in Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising. Their lives mean to me much more than the others. It´s a natural reaction, I believe.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

History Hustle

3y↑1

I understand.

Charles Mettson

My hometown is Bautzen, which is ~50km away from Dresden. My grandmother also lived there when this bombing happened.
She told me, that they could hear the knocks of the bombs exploding far away, for several hours. Also they did see the light of the fire clearly, lighting the sky up just like a sunrise at night. That must have been a horrible view, while thinking of the civilians which had nothing to do with this war, just like her as a young woman.
In fact, neighter the axis nor the allied had any legitimation to do city bombings. All of them were kind of war crimes, just ask japanese people for this.
We as humanity should have learned of this times cruelty, and never make anything like this happen again, there wouldnt be any logical reasons.

Today i live in Dresden, and even if it maybe doesnt have its old charm back, it got a modern charm which makes me just feel good in this city. Its still very beautiful. Im fine with that :)

History Hustle

Very interesting to read, thanks for sharing this. I agree, Dresden doesn't have its old charm, but its a nice city with good people.

boretti1307

3y↑3

Nice episode. Do you think it's worth to tell also about the bombing of Pforzheim, 9 days later? The strategic need was disputable, and the allies knew about he damage to civillians since Dresden. 17.600 casualties in about 25 minutes.

Dennis Weidner

@Mike Ryan Well the Luftwaffe was not bombing, but V-2s were still being launched. And the Allies and even more so the Soviets were still substantial taking casualties, The major justification for the Dresden bombing was to close down a rail hub and prevent German troop movement in response to Soviet requests. The Germans were defeated, but people were still being killed. The camos in the East were being emptied and the prisoners sent on death marches in the freezing cold without food and in camps still in German-controlled areas.

I think knowing what we know now, Dresden should not have been bombed. But it is easy to make judgments 75 years later knowing all the facts. Decisions made during the war with people were still being killed were a lot more difficult. World War II was the greatest war in history, with more than 50 million people killed. Some 90 percent if those killed were civilians and 90mpercent of those killed were killed by the Germans and Japanese. Especially on the German side killing civilians was a major WAR GOAL. The Allies and Soviets had created a huge military effort to destroy the ability of the Germans and Japanese to make war. Turning that iff on a dime given what the Germans and Japanese had done would have been a miracle. Actually, the Germans were fortunate that there were not more Dreesdens and more severe treatment after the War. The Allied bombing caused a very small fraction of the huge numbers killed by the NAZIs--over 25 million in the Soviet Union alone.

Mike Ryan

@Dennis Weidner Your first question is spot on. We know that Germany is the answer. Same with your second question. I'm not sure who the Germans (not just Nazis) were bombing in February 1945. By that time the Luftwaffe hardly existed. But I would question what is perhaps implicit in your comment: they started it so it was okay for the Allies to do the same. I agree that it was vital (literally) to get the war ended as soon as possible but I'm not sure that the destruction of Pforzheim did much to bring the war nearer to its end. By that time the RAF was running out of cities to destroy so they just decided to destroy Pforzheim as it hadn't yet been destroyed. After all, Harris had all those bombers and he wanted to use them. Fortunately, both the British and Americans left Bamberg off their lists. That, at least, is one German city which is still today much the same as it was before the war.

Dennis Weidner

boretti1307 Just who do you think set the war in motion? And who began bombing civilians? And at the time you are referring to, the NAZis were still bombing and killing civilians.

History Hustle

Pforzheim might be covered in the future someday.

Johnno Dordrecht

Again a very nice video, ga zo door man !

History Hustle

👍

Luxembourgish Empire

3y↑13

The comment section is going to love this...
Keep up the good work history hustle.

History Hustle

3y↑3

Thanks and yes, it will go all out I'm afraid...

Vladislav Dimitrov

3y↑2

Oh , yeaaaah with impatience im waiting you to upload a video keep going with the good content ! This idea came in my head . Can you do a video about the German shepherds how did they use them on the field etc.

History Hustle

Thanks! And no, not making videos about the role of animals anytime soon. Interesting topic though.

Zosimus2.18 I

on the fields on Eastern Front...

Dennis Weidner

3y↑2

This is a reasonably accurate synopsis of the Dresden bombing. For one thing, dispelling the nonsense that there were no war industries in Dresden. The only major issue I have with it is why the focus on Harris. The Americans also bombed Dresden. And the orders to bomb Dresden came from the Allied High Command. I would also like to know his source when if I understood him correctly saying that the war industries were located on the outskirts of Dresen and not bombed. It should be noted that when talking about bombing city centers that this is where the railway infrastructure was usually located and the marshaling yards--which were a primary target of the bombing campaign. And it also needs to be noted and rarely mentioned in the discussion of the bombing, is that the Germans were still bombing London. And one last point. Dresden was a highly NAZIfied city. And largely spontaneous demonstrations after the Fuhrer Bunker Bombing (July 1944) showed widespread opposition to unconditional surrender. After the bombing, this mindset was fundamentally changed.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@History Hustle Thanks. I'll have a look. The only real criticism I had of your video was the introduction. I don't think it reasonably reflected the balanced presentation that followed. The simple fact is that the Germans were very good at war. The only way to defeat them was the massive application of force. Those who criticize the bombing need to explain just how the NAZI horror could be defeated without it. They never do. Dresden was a tragedy. But the responsibility has to be in part laid at the feet of the NAZIS who started the War and began bombing civilians as well as committing terrible atrocities. In World War I, only about 20 percent of the casualties were civilians. In World War II 80 percent of the casualties were civilians. And the vast amount of that killing was done by the Axis. It would have been nice if the Allies had foregone the Dresden bombing, but there were legitimate reasons for it. And it is it really reasonable given human nature for the Allies still taking real casualties to suddenly adopt woke thinking.

History Hustle

Thanks for your reply, Dennis. Actually, I also made a video about the July 1944 Plot. In case you're interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qvPJzjHaeA

Caleb Churchill

3y↑2

800 Bombers...incredible. My Dad told me about the bombing of Dresden when i was very young. He told me if you look closely at History you will find there was only one good guy (Jesus). That was the first time i understood American actions were not always correct. It shook my world for a time. Its interesting how we took Germanys place in the fight against Atheist Communism as soon as the German guns were silenced our guns were turned on the Soviets. I don't think the US ever envisioned the Cold War when we joined Britain.

Caleb Churchill

@History Hustle i watched it just now and left a comment on that video. In regards to Operation Unthinkable wow i had never heard of this plan and Churchill didn't mention it in his last book in his WW2 Series but i do remember in the back of the book the Appendix he had a random memo to General Montgomery complaining about ill treatment of Surrendering German Generals and later i saw a memo where Churchill complained about the destruction of German weapons and said could we not save back a 100,000 to possibly use in the event of a crisis. Really crazy to think about. But on the original subject i read twice in Churchills last book Triumph And Tragedy he said that this conflict was begun because of the destruction of the Monarchy of the Austro-Hungarian empire by the allies in The Treaty of Versailles. (In so doing they also recreated the formerly defunct state of Poland perhaps hoping it would fill the power vacuum they created with a Pro-British country.) And after what Churchill witnessed in Greece after the Germans were defeated and displaced by the Communists he trully began to realize basically by destroying Germany they inevitably would now face Germany's enemies.

Caleb Churchill

@History Hustle Thank You Thank You! I will watch it soon. Ive saved it to my watch later list. I am excited to see what you put together.

History Hustle

3y↑2

More on that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3RyJvYMYCk

Mark Axworthy

3y↑6

What about the optics Industry, which was centred Dresden? Without this industry Germany would have had no bomb sights for its air force, no gun sights for its army and navy, and no periscopes for its submarines.

Dennis Weidner

@ Mark Axworthy A lot of electronics also came out of Dresen factories.

History Hustle

3y↑1

can't tell

IronWolf

3y↑26

Enjoying a peaceful day before this becomes an uncontrollable fire

History Hustle

3y↑4

Sure things!

cmdrflake

Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. led the outcry over the wonton destruction of Dresden. He had been there and was not afraid to speak up about the need for this “unnecessary destruction” of a city of minor strategic value.

History Hustle

Thanks for sharing.

Derek Lambe

3y↑2

Another great video. Keep ‘em coming please!

History Hustle

Thanks! :)

JoeJ94611

3y↑1

The American author, Kurt Vonnegut, was a POW in Dresden during the bombing. He mentions it in his book “Slaughterhouse 5”

History Hustle

I heard about it.

THE Game twins

3y↑6

Can u do a live stream where guys can ask u stuff about history?

History Hustle

3y↑1

Perhaps one day. When we reach 50K subs another Q&A will follow.

Steto Guy

3y↑5

Really I don't think the question should be whether it was moral or not. War itself is inherently immoral. Rather it should be an example of how awful war is and why it should be avoided as much as possible.

Dennis Weidner

@ Steto Guy War is brutal, but not necessarily immoral. Christian Just War doctrine is very clear on that. The question is if it advanced the Allied War effort without committing war crimes.

Steto Guy

@History Hustle Oh I don’t disagree with the reasoning as to why u made this video, forgive me if I gave that impression. I was merely answering the question that is so often brought up about the bombing.

History Hustle

Agree, yet history is about exploring details and nuances and that's why I made this video.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑3

History Hustle

I see. Thanks for taking the time to write it down.

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑3

Christian Unger

3y↑4

Numbers are deceptive. If you find a body, it is counted. If it’s incinerated, it isn’t. Some areas were simply covered up with virtually no searching for human remains inside the inadequate air raid shelters. Bomber command had a lot of aircraft and aircrews at this point and the Luftwaffe was getting weaker by the day, even adding to the problem by stripping Dresden of some of its AAA defences out of the false assumption that the city would not be targeted. The primary target, the rail system, was back in operation in about a week. Given that the RAF was expert at hitting pinpoint targets at this point in the war, as they would hit individual buildings used by the Gestapo or prisons housing resistance leaders they sought to aid in an escape, Dresden was not its finest moment. By contrast, the aforementioned Guernica bombing, an example cited as an early terror bombing attack, the mission there was to destroy the bridge ...which the Condor Legion totally failed to do and apparently still stands to this day.

History Hustle

3y↑1

Thanks for sharing your insights on this.

Mark Axworthy

3y↑11

Don't forget the 19 German barracks, depots, headquarters, etc., in Dresden. 8% of all German army manpower was administered from the city.

ski vermont

im jewish....i am just disgusted in the posts trying to put down the allies and defending germany. You people are sick. Look at history the allies had to end the war, this bombing campaign is small compared to what the nazis did to the USSR or to cities in europe. The red army and US soliders minds were warped by the horror they saw in concentration camps so you cant blame them for being messed up by the end of the war. Germany caused all of this! You cant them complain

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Mark Axworthy Absolutely correct.

AK Counder

3y↑2

Anyone who knows the layout of Dresden will know that anything of military significance was nowhere near the city centre. The bombing was a deliberate, vile war crime that destroyed not only one of Europe's most beautiful cities, but also any moral high ground the Allies held until that point.

History Hustle

3y↑1

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Benny Garr

3y↑1

No matter what the war it's always the innocent that seem to suffer the most, so sad

History Hustle

3y↑1

yes

David Raper

3y↑1

An uncomfortable subject, it will probably always be controversial, there are arguments on both sides and it was war etc. but you can't help feeling sorry for innocents caught up in it all.

History Hustle

3y↑1

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

g00gl301

My grandpa was in Dresden "working" for the germans as a skipper (he was a binnenschipper from nl, taken to Germany, convinced the germans he would be useful as skipper in Dresden, which it was seen as a safe city, away from the front). He survived the bombing, transported to Berlin by the russians, from Berlin to Holland by the americans.
He kept a diary but my grandma threw it away because of all the horrors of the war... People in flames jumping into the river, corpses on the streets reduced to ashes... You can only imagine.

g00gl301

@History Hustle Unfortunately I never met my Opa, so I can t really tell you much more about his experiencies in Dresden.

History Hustle

Must've made an impression. You ever spoke to your grandpa about his experiences? How did he reflect on what happened? Feel free to share what you know.

Dulguun Bayarsaikhan

Loved this keep up the good work

History Hustle

👍

JoeJ94611

3y↑3

An historian commented that the Allies bombed Dresden to show the approaching Soviet army what allied air power could do because the Allies were concerned the Soviet Union, having numerical superiority on the ground, would advance beyond the agreed upon limit.

Dennis Weidner

@JoeJ94611 What Allied leader are you talking about? Churchill? FDR? Eisenhower? What is the factual basis for this claim?

Ivancho

I believe that this was the case. It was a warning to the Soviets and the future East Germans. Also the allies were running out of targets.

History Hustle

Interesting theory. Eventually it were the Americans who advanced beyond the agreed limits.

John Meskill

I have read that the US/British bombing of Dresden may have been a show of strength to their Soviet “ally”.

History Hustle

I've heard that also but I can't confirm this.

X VSJ

3y↑1

Excellent Tutorial 👍

History Hustle

3y↑1

Thanks!

Craft Paint

3y↑9

One RAF bombardier said "By the time the Germans put those fires out they won't have enough water to make a pot of tea."

Craft Paint

3y↑1

@History Hustle As I understand it, Germany and Britain had a strange arrangement where Berlin and London would not be bombed unless the other did it first. Once the bombing advanced however V-2 Rockets were hitting London and other targets even in the Reich where the Allies were advancing. That's pretty desperate bombing when we consider what it took to build each V-2 Rocket. And do we really know all the war contributions of Dresden? What was an enemy city to the Allies really, when It was said by bomber command in Britain after the war that if they'd known how important Albert Speer was to the German war effort, and if they had known where he was on a particular day - they would have sent every bomber they had just to kill him - they were willing to level an entire city or town to eliminate one man.

Craft Paint

@The Truth That the Allies would do anything to win the war, that bombardier would have done it again the next night if told too. Japan was nuked twice, are you saying it's the same?

History Hustle

3y↑2

Wolfgang Pagel

I am from Dresden. The people who put out those fires teached us to not use water on a firebomb. Instead you have to put them in a sandbox. The communist prepared us for that in the school because the imperialists could return every day with their bombers.

Bill Lombard

3y↑3

Dresden was partially rebuilt by the DDR and later rebuilt by the former western Germany , it does lack its authenticity

some opinion

“I really did go back to Dresden with Guggenheim money (God love it) in 1967. It looked a lot like Dayton, Ohio, more open spaces than Dayton has.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five

History Hustle

I also believe Dresden lacks its authenticity, yet, the rebuilders did their best.

EE Dragon r

@Bill Lombard for the authenticity I would dare to suggest a search for the destruction of Royan, France.

EE Dragon r

@Bill Lombard it has been destroyed

Bill Lombard

@EE Dragon r authenticity isn’t being able to mold copies out of concrete , it’s how the workmen made the building , age , the sagging of the structure that made it real , the little artistic touches no copy can produce

1 More Replies...

L0united

3y↑1

did the old bridge behind you survived the bombing, or was it rebuilt?

History Hustle

3y↑1

Partially.

Òscar Baltà

3y↑3

Usually those who doesn't strike first, are seen in a better way that those who started the fight.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Òscar Baltà Often who started a war is not clear. In World War II it was crystal clear.

History Hustle

In a way.

ggjbgg

It makes me so happy that people are talking about how world war 2 wasnt "good vs bad" but "bad vs worse".

History Hustle

Fair enough.

Elmsfeuer

2y↑1

History Hustle

Thanks for sharing this additional information.

Updog

Love the way you talk and I love the beard. Thanks for the good video brother.

History Hustle

Thanks for your reply!

Shanty Clips

2y↑1

You never mentioned that the bombing happened in February 1945!? That is the most important point! Germany had already lost. This was an act of vengeance. Kicking the horse while it's down. Bombing cultural heritage is wrong no matter who does it!

History Hustle

Think you should pay attention when watching a video, because I mention the dates.

1 More Replies...

jmariliou

3y↑1

the first few sentences you say are extremely important. there are no good guys and no bad guys. There are great differences of civilizations, of peoples, of ethics. (the winner's ethics are always the best). The worst culprits in this war are those who started it. The war itself is only a consequence. Treaty of Versailles, communism which wants to seize Germany (When Marx dreams of "Marxism", he thinks of Germany). Perhaps you could teach about these notions, which were often brought up in the discussions I had in Dresden 20 years ago with the elders. When we judge the actors of a war, we judge only the misdeeds of the losers. And the victorious leaders, as well as those responsible for the conflicts, we give them street names ... Isn't there a mistake somewhere?

Dennis Weidner

You contradict yourself. "the winner's ethics are always the best." Yet we are having this discussion in America and Britain.

History Hustle

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

Ralph Bernhard

@History Hustle See my new comment at the top of the page.
Maybe you could make a video of "the big picture", and how the decision to "area bomb" city centers fit into it?
Rgds

History Hustle

3y↑1

This comment is so off-topic man. Try to focus on the topic at hand here.

Enthousiasper

3y↑2

Interesting video about Dresden! 👍🏻👍🏻

History Hustle

👍

Gibralter Steamboat Co

Once again,Excellent

History Hustle

👍

Bubi Ruski

3y↑1

Not even the official history published by the US War Department mentions what the Moroccans did to these Italian mountain villagers !

History Hustle

3y↑1

? This video is about Dresden.

Matthew Arenson

Allied POWS were in the city as it was happing. One was the famous American author in Kurt Vonnegut. I read his book back in high school in 2012.

History Hustle

Slaughterhouse 5 right?

AK Counder

3y↑1

Not much to debate about. When all facts are considered, the bombing was an act of evil perpetrated by the Allies. A war crime.

It was the war in the east and the targeted raids on German oil production that won the war, not terror bombing of civilians.

History Hustle

Fair point. Thanks for sharing.

Tonny 'Wild' Weasel

3y↑5

I think if your enemy bombs your cities and shoots v1 and v2 missiles into them, then you are simply going to hit back. And if at some point your hammer hits bigger and harder .. well ,war is wanting to win. Hard.
To pass a moral judgment afterwards, also with knowledge from afterwards, is too blunt, in my opinion. Just my two cents🙂
Great video again!

ROAD GENT

@Dennis Weidner Oh I see...quoting some dates makes one not only illiterate but a nazi sympathiser? Got it.

Dennis Weidner

@ T. 'Wild' Weasel There is no moral code that postulates that right or wrong depends on the quantity of ordinance used. If that was the case, it would have been the Confederates who were in the right. And even the wokest among us would not accept that.

ROAD GENT

France and Britain started the war on Germany 3rd Sept 1939. First bombardments on German territory began 7th Sept. How does your synopsis fit in with the facts?

History Hustle

3y↑1

Thanks for sharing your thoughs on this.

1 More Replies...

Bubi Ruski

3y↑1

1:28 It should be noted that at that time point the Fnglish were quite happy with the bombing of Guernica. The Fnglish assisted even Franco by a naval blockade to cut the Republicans off from supply.
Now historians stereotype point with the finger on the Germans !

ROAD GENT

3y↑1

@History Hustle You seem to "not get" quite a lot of comments when they give pesky awkward facts.

Bubi Ruski

@History Hustle But no problem. Your videos are fine !

Bubi Ruski

3y↑3

@History Hustle Ok. The nazis assisted Franco and historians usually mention atrocities committed by the nazis in Spain. I think one should portray the entire situation as it really was. Franco was assisted by the nazis and by the Italians. The Fnglish also assisted Franco by a naval blockade to cut of the Republicans from supply. At that time point London certainly considered Guernica bombing a success. Nowadays the Fnglish point with the finger on the Germans for Guernica. For me it looks as if they conveniently use these events to justify the atrocities committed by themselves !

History Hustle

I don't get this comment.

TZAZ Arizona

3y↑4

Your presentation is your slant on this event, nothing wrong with that. Wringing our hands over the morality of it is an exercise in futility, do you think if another world war ever occurs that Atomic bombs are going to spare the civilians in the five mile blast area. Remember war is hell.

Dennis Weidner

@ TZAZ Arizona The presentation was basically factual and unbiased, a little surprising given the introduction.

History Hustle

3y↑1

War is hell. Yes. History is about details and that's what I explore with this video. And the others.

Mike Hydropneumatic

3y↑1

Great video.

Pablo Picasso made a painting about Guernica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(Picasso)

History Hustle

Indeed!

Johnnie Ireland

3y↑1

Selective bombing of factories making munitions and other weapons, as well as destroying transportation hubs would be a legitimate target even though there would still be a bit of collateral damage, but the fact that they purposely targeted civilians in whole city with incendiary bombs making it next to impossible to escape, almost impossible to breathe causing suffocation, making bomb shelters that were available for people useless, killing their own POWs who were in the city during the bombing definitely make's it a "War-Crime" in my eye's.

Dennis Weidner

@Johnnie Ireland Really? Judt who was building the Onzers, U-boasts, and jet saircrsaft?

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Johnnie Ireland The Brutish after the fall of France had a choice. They could 1) not fight the Germans or 2) wage a strategic bombing campaign. And given the strength of the Luftwaffe, it could only be at night. Which meant that it had to be an incendiary campaign. This meant that there would be civilian casualties. I will point out that the Germans were the first to use incendiaries in force -- during the Battle of Britain. Given that the Germans: 1) started the war, 2) started bombing civilians, and 3) started nighttime incendiary raids, it is hardly a war crime. Give the war crimes being perpetrated by the NAZIs, the only war crime the Allies could have made would have been to fail to have used every power at their disposal to wage war against them. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tol/ger/crime/nazi-crime.html

Johnnie Ireland

@History Hustle My uncle actually took part in it as a gunner, and he was never proud of it. Yeah I dont believe in revenge attacks either especially if it involves civilians and not so much military targets.

History Hustle

5 More Replies...

The Downfall Parodist

3y↑5

Can You Do Austria in World War 2

Lawrence Davis

@History Hustle Thank you!

History Hustle

3y↑1

Already done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRVNRZfswM

Lawrence Davis

3y↑2

Thank you, I wondered about asking the same question.

Janos82

3y↑3

Amazing video

History Hustle

Thanks!

Albert Nielsen

The first firebombing of Tokyo cost the lives of more than 100,000 civilians.
.
The Japanese week long slaughter in Nanking 1936 cost about 200,000 civilian lives, stabbed by bajonets, drowned, shot, beheaded, ...

History Hustle

3y↑1

Yes, this video is about Dresden.

Rictang

3y↑1

My oma wasn't in dresden but from Essen. She was only survivor from direct hit on her cellar. As a lot of German houses have cellars they were used as air raid shelters. The worst was the phospurhus bombs which turned the concrete on the pavements into a liquid like boiling water. I live in the UK and when 5 November came around she would hide and cry.

Dennis Weidner

@Rictang Luck had nothing to do with it. It is the work of the Allied soldiers who defeated NAZI Germany that is the reason.

Rictang

You are welcome. Yes she said when she returned in late 1945 her house was the only one left standing for miles around. We are lucky we have not experienced this. Take care Mr hustle.

History Hustle

3y↑2

Thanks for sharing. Essen was also destroyed. I've seen photos of what the city used to look like. I visited it a few years ago. Not much is left.

spring 0509

3y↑2

its was a war crime, moreover it turned out after the war that the bombardements had not much effect on the production of weapons, and certainly not at all tactically

History Hustle

Mark12 Strang

3y↑4

The bombing of Dresden didnt shorten the war by one day.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@Mark12 Strang The Germans had lost the War. That is true, but it was not over. The Germans had bit surrendered, Large numbers of Allied and Soviet soldiers were still being killed. And London was still being bombed. Dresden was an important transportation hub. And the Germans were trying to move troops to the Eastern Front based on Enigma decrypts. . There were also war industries in Dresden. It was not pointless, but it was a tragedy, You are correct the Brits did not honor the bomber crews after the War.

Mark12 Strang

In 1945 the war was already won by the allies. Destroying Dresden at this points was pointless. There is a good reason why the British public honored the fighter pilots of the RAF, but ignored the bomber crews.

11 More Replies...

Kampfgruppe Peiper

3y↑1

Very nice watch!!

History Hustle

great!

MrRetroentertainment

3y↑3

That was an first class war crime!

History Hustle

Colin G

3y↑2

this is still emotive in UK .. sadly the usual suspects of whiney lefties attack the RAF ( rather than the politcians ) .. 55 000 airmen in Bomber command were killed in ww2 - it was extremely hazardous campaign waged throughout the war.. it was a second front long before D-Day.. you put good arguments for reason why Dresden was bombed.. it was indeed a hub and Stalin asked for it to be bombed to support his offensive on eastern Germany. the western Allies were always keen to aid the Soviets knowing they were facing the bulk of the German forces. a RAF pilot returning from Dresden mused on the bombing of the city but as dawn broke he saw the trails of V2 rockets as they tore into the sky - destination England.. the Germans were still fighting, so they had to expect to be bombed until they quit... an "amusing story about bomber Harris was on night he was driving to London at high speed and was stopped by a police patrol. a young constable reprimanded him for his 'dangerous driving' and said "one of these nights you're going to kill someone" - Harris drily replied "young man, i kill thousands of people every night!" ... as an ex-RAF man i appreciated his dry humour. you have a job to do , you can't boo hoo about it.

History Hustle

3y↑1

EE Dragon r

Destruction of Royan, France

1 More Replies...

F Dijkstra

3y↑2

Guernica is not the first example of terror bombing that would be the German Zeplin and Gotha aerial campaign against London during WWI.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑2

@ F Dijkstra Absolutely correct, although that wasn't how it was sold to the Kaiser. It was also the reason the Brits built the Chain Home Network. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/air/eur/bob/tech/bobt-achn.html

F Dijkstra

3y↑1

@History Hustle Destruction by air on that scale was new. Raising cities to the ground is as ancient as warfare.

Keep up the good work, love your channel!

History Hustle

True, although in was referring to bombings by Nazi Germany. Furthermore it destructive character was new for that time.

Noe Carrier

3y↑1

The reference to "Scarecrow shells" is Allied propaganda. The numerous massive midair explosions that night bomber crews saw on a regular basis were explained as the result of special flare shells being fired by the Nazis, full of different coloured flares and magnesium and so on, designed to scare Allied bomber crews. They were actually exploding bombers, destroyed by night fighters, flak or a little Strange Music.

Noe Carrier

@History Hustle The original announcer in one of the black and white newsreel clips mentions them.

History Hustle

"Scarecrow shells"?

Philippe SAIZ

3y↑1

Of COURSE they were surgical strikes !
Amputation...

Philippe SAIZ

@History Hustle Well, Amputation is a form a surgical procedure, right ? Although a bit "rough".
(that was the joke)

History Hustle

Gibralter Steamboat Co

3y↑1

Dresden city council in 2005 authorized an independent Historian's Commission (Historikerkommission) to conduct a new, thorough investigation, collecting and evaluating available sources. The results were published in 2010 and stated that up to 25,000 people were killed.

Wolfgang Pagel

@Dennis Weidner As good as this sounds to you it is totally worthless because you do use that label to simply everybody who has a different opinion on something or knows more than you.

Dennis Weidner

@Wolfgang Pagel I like engaging with people who have different ideas. I draw the line at neo-NAZIS.

Wolfgang Pagel

@Dennis Weidner And again, you claim something you did not say and said it repeatedly anyway.
The history of WWII and others is highly polluted by propaganda. The truth is, that the British intentionally started WWI and II by using other countries. Every rational thinking human knows that it can not have been in the German interest to start a war on two sides. To avoid that logic conclusion they know nothing but to say that Hitler was a madman. Either you go with the narrative intentionally or you start thinking yourself, thats always the choice.
And anyway, if you think that civilians have to be murdered to make a point then there is a problem with your ethics. Also comparing the victims of one war crime to the total number of people that died in this world war is an idea counting against your sanity. That talking point could be held against every single atrocity of the whole war on every side.

Wolfgang Pagel

@Dennis Weidner Even If you drop buzz words it does not become truth. You just put every piece of guilt on the whole of Germany to justify like everything.

9 More Replies...

mike hoare

3y↑1

Please name the convention about aerial warfare before 1939 !?

mike hoare

@History Hustle there was none, thus no war crime.
I heared that also from german historian Sönke Neitzel, despite all that revisionism going on.
Same applies to the Gustloff sinking, it´s still no war crime.

History Hustle

Your point?

Raymond Rogers

3y↑3

Play total war, win total war prizes.

History Hustle

Harsh truth.

Poderoso Europeo

3y↑2

This is criminal. Justice is in favor of Sacred Germany

History Hustle

Sacred Germany... ?

EE Dragon r

@AlaskaErik the Soviets moved out from there remember.

AlaskaErik

3y↑2

Bullshit. Germany is in no position to declare this criminal or to seek any type of "justice". They just need to suck it up and move on.

1 More Replies...

Helmut Maucher

3y↑1

Hi could you do a film how the wealthy German industrialist and land owners kept most of there wealth after the war thanking you

History Hustle

Economics isn't my specialty and field of interest, sorry.

Helmut Maucher

@Katrina Balanchuk how did the likes of Gloria von taxi and thurn family the quart the makers of BMW the thysenn steel family still manage to keep there wealth and land when everybody was supposed to be equal on null stunde

Bad Ape

3y↑3

It's hard for us 80 years later to justify or judge the actions of leaders then. In the end the innocent are the ones who suffer the most

History Hustle

sad truth

Cascadian Applications

3y↑5

The body count that low seems unlikely. Even the video admitted that the city was packed.

Wolfgang Pagel

3y↑1

@History Hustle Walter Weidauer, Inferno Dresden; David Irving, Apocalypse 1945 and many more including primary sources. The destruction of our city is a common subject every year, politicised by leftist groups and right wingers alike the common people stuck between.

History Hustle

Please check my sources.What books did you read about Dresden?

AlaskaErik

@Wolfgang Pagel Bullshit. 25,000 dead was first determined by Dresden city officials in 1945 and confirmed by a Dresden commission in the 2000s. You don't trust your own city's numbers?

Cascadian Applications

3y↑1

@Wolfgang Pagel Grußen aus Amerika. Wenn ich an Dresden denken, macht es mich traurig.

2 More Replies...

Richard Zellers

I lived in Dresden for a few years and love the city. HOWEVER, when I hear the "bombing Dresden was a war crime" I reply...Germans did the same to Geurnica,Spain; Coventry, England; Warsaw, Poland, etc etc. ....long before Dresden. I also don't accept the rejoinder, "It was a war crime for both sides".

History Hustle

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

अजिङ्क्य गोखले

3y↑2

It was a war crime. Just because it was done in retaliation doesn't make it right. It may have been a necessity but still, a crime.

Dennis Weidner

@अजिङ्क्य गोखले This message from you appeared in my eMail but not the feed here. "Dennis Weidner If a gunman enters into a public place and indiscriminately starts shooting, the police will shoot him dead, in order to prevent him from killing more people. Think of it as a crime of a lesser magnitude perpetrated in order to prevent a crime of a much greater magnitude. There is a difference between necessity and being right. War crimes are sometimes necessary to gain a military advantage, but can't call them right. The soldiers I respect most are those who shoulder the burden of those crimes which they commit to see that their country is the victor. PS: Do not take my last statement to mean that I have any respect for the Nazi or Japanese soldiers. Ideological war crimes are something which can never be justified." I do not take your posts as pro-NAZI. You raise a legitimate issue. I do not think war crimes are needed to win a war. Our disagreement is over the definition of 'crime'. I urge you to look up the definition
Reply

Dennis Weidner

3y↑2

@अजिङ्क्य गोखले Again you oversimplify. Who do you think manufactured the German aircraft that bombed civilians? It was civilian workers. Or who do you think manufactured the gas chambers and Zyklon-B gas. It was civilian workers. MAZI aggression was impossible without civilian workers who supported the NAZI war effort. Now many of those workers were not NAZIs, but the problem is that is was not possible to live in NAZI Germany without contributing to the war effort in some way--if only to grow potatoes to feed the German Army. And this is why it was not possible to wage war against the NAZUs without harming civilians.

You speak excellent English. And if you use your dictionary you will find that a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. And stopping the NAZIs and Japanese who were committing unlawful acts under international law was this the right of the international community and thus not a crime. Self-defense is a well-established right and therefore not a crime. I can't speak for all religions, but this is the case for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

अजिङ्क्य गोखले

@Dennis Weidner You are giving the example of killing a person who is actually committing a crime. That is ok. But the RAF bombed German civilians during the war, and they surely had little to no hand in the atrocities perpetrated by their government or their military. That's why I say, war crimes are sometimes, a military necessity, but they are still crimes.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑2

@अजिङ्क्य गोखले By your logic if a policeman shoots a criminal robbing a bank or killing people, then he is committing a crime. My issue is how you define a crime. The country that BEGINS to bomb civilians is committing a war crime. A country that bombs the aggressor to stop his bombing and invading other countries is not committing a crime. Just as a policeman using lethal force is not committing a crime.

अजिङ्क्य गोखले

@Dennis Weidner I said it was a war crime, I never mentioned that it shouldn't have been done. In the end, your objective is victory. The fascists needed to be stopped, and if committing war crimes to the necessary extent helped in that, it's not unacceptable. You don't win wars by being civilized gentlemen.

Germany targeted ethnic groups based on the sick racial mindset, they didn't care whether it was of military importance of not. And that's what is sickening.

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kisscola

Well I think we should call out what has to be called out whatever side it comes from.
If a monster or a saint kills, it is the same action. Morals and intentions aside.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@kisscola First of all we need to have a discussion of what an innocent person is. Jews driven into gas chambers were innocent people. Germans civilians benefiting from NAZI plunder, eating food stolen from starving people in occupied countries, being given the belongings of those killed in the death camps, designing gas chambers or producing Zyklon-B, and building Panzers and U-boats rather stretches the definition of innocent.

I assume you agree that NAZI Germany had to be defeated. Can you explain to me how that could be done without a lot of innocent or semi-innocent people being killed? I will point out that the German civilians killed in the war were a very small part of the tens of millions of civilians who perished.

kisscola

@Dennis Weidner I agree, there is a difference. But if innocent people get killed I won't call it self defense, it's killing innocent people, whatever the bigger picture say is necessary.
Just call it what it is.

Well, I should have added innocent people in my first statement for claryfication. My bad.

Dennis Weidner

@ kisscola Totally incorrect. There is a difference between murder and self-defense, a difference recoh=gnized by all the great world religious thinkers.

History Hustle

Álvaro Ruiz Cendón

For me... the big question if we were agreed (me not) with the allied argument.... why in 1945 february?... why not February 1943 or summer 1944 when the tráfic of Divisions between the east and western front was continous and strategic relevant in the middle of Overload Operacion?

Dennis Weidner

3y↑2

Because in February 1945 eastern Germany was the front line and the germans were trying to move troops from the west to the east.

History Hustle

3y↑1

Good question. Dresden was - for a long time - excepted from bombing since the Allies also saw it as a beautiful city that shouldn't be bombed flat right away.

Nicholas Blythe

3y↑2

Another nice vid stefan

History Hustle

👍

Nicholas Blythe

@History Hustle your welcome keep up the good work

History Hustle

Thanks!!

Te eSz

Dlaczego? To zupełnie proste. Chodziło o wybicie z tych zadufanych niemieckich łbów idei i pragnienia dominacji nad resztą świata. Litowanie się nad oprawcami jest wyjątkowo szkodliwe.

History Hustle

English please.

Te eSz

Osobiście żałuję, że nie wszyscy zostali wybici.

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66kbm

3y↑12

There are both rights and wrongs in War. I defend niether. Dresden in modern thinking, and mine, should not have been bombed. However, i did not live through the 1939/45 war and therefore do not have thier mental pyshci within me.Can anyone who was not there judge it? Its History, leave it at that and lets all learn from it.

Dennis Weidner

@ 66kbm In modern thinking, the police should be defined or abolished and replaced with community organizers and social justice warriors. Fortunately Allied leaders knew how to deal with the NAZIs

Joe Garry

@Gene Whitman Yes, we all can have our opinions,I know all about the realities of war. My Grandfather lost two brothers in action in the first world war and my Father was extremely lucky to survive the second world war in which he took an active part. Tell me all about it.

Gene Whitman

@Joe Garry you can have your own opinion, while you sit in the comfort of your home, far away from the realities of war.

Gene Whitman

agree

History Hustle

3y↑1

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Mike Cain

Did terror bombing bring a speedier end to the war?

Dennis Weidner

@History Hustle The strategic bombing campaign had a huge impact on the War. For example, it was why the Luftwaffe was not present on D-Day. More importantly, while the bulk of German manpower was committed to the Ostkrieg, German war industries primarily were focused on the war in the West. It was why most of the Ostheer was so poorly supported, on foot using horse-drawn carts. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/air/eur/sbc/eco/sbc-gie.html

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@ Mike Cain It certainly did. Just why do you think, for example, that the Luftwaffe was not present for D-Day, https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/air/eur/sbc/ac-sbc.html

History Hustle

3y↑1

Barely.

Kevin Parker

You attack and kill… expect to be attacked and killed back… Germany is totally responsible for the carnage.

History Hustle

Understandable.

paul Tzacos

3y↑1

Bottom line is war is war.....There is no justified or not....Can talk about it afterward and wonder if it was justified but at the time during a war justification doesn't matter.

ROAD GENT

@History Hustle 6th July 1944 in War Cabinet Briefing, Churchill ordered the saturation bombing of German cities with Mustard Gas - Brooke noted in his war diary. Can be found in the IWM London archive. Order was ignored ultimately. Just as well as the Germans had 10,000 tonnes of the new Tabun gas and 1000 tonnes of the even deadlier Sarin gas. Brooke also noted that Churchill was drunk.

History Hustle

War is hell. Although war against Germany in WW2 was needed to bring it to a halt. Question is on how far people were willing to go. This bombing (as well as the others) shows the allies were willing to go very far!

Collin Beck

3y↑1

All those civilians that were affected in any of those European countries because of the war...were just incredibly resilient to survive multiple bombings and have everything taken from them and own nothing except the clothes on there backs but still manage to live through the war and come back home after to restart a new life and build a new home all over again..I cant even imagine being a child and going through all of that

EE Dragon r

@Dennis Weidner glad to hear that we agree on this extremely evil topic.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@EE Dragon r I absolutely agree. Actually, I was engaging in a little shorthand as the discussion here was about Dresden. I actually believe that World WEar II was launched by Hitler AND Stalin as allies. Both invaded Poland as allies. And for nearly 2 years NAZI Germany and the Soviet Union were allies and both committed massive brutal war crimes and atrocities. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/wca/w2wca-sov.html

EE Dragon r

@Dennis Weidner I wouldn't minimize Stalin 's evil contributions as finally USSR gained the most after the war.

Dennis Weidner

3y↑1

@EE Dragon r There is no doubt that the bombing of Dresden was terrible. The question is who is responsible. I say it is the German authorities who launched the War.

EE Dragon r

@Dennis Weidner I don't know why are you thinking exclusively at the Germans when I am speaking about the Soviets? Anyway perhaps you would prefer to be like the civilians under the Dresden bombardment and and breathing effectively burning air.

3 More Replies...

Milivoj Nonkovic

3y↑6

For me if you decide to kill inocent people and the same thing happens to you who is guilty. Y ofcourse

Wolfgang Pagel

@Dennis Weidner Yes, we DO talk about individuals. Guilt is always individual and you put it on a group. Also the video deals with the death of individuals, not gouvernments. If you claim rules that you do not keep, what does that say about your claims?

History Hustle

Gentil Chat

yes, but when you kill subhuman and master race
it's a different deal

Wolfgang Pagel

So, if a guy from your country kills a family in another country it would be okay if that country kills your family?

1 More Replies...

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑1

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

Ralph Bernhard

3y↑2

History Hustle

3y↑1

Don't get this message.

Gentil Chat

Dennis Weidner

@Gentil Chat I have no idea what you mean.

Gentil Chat

@Dennis Weidner You call ally with them then

Dennis Weidner

@Gentil Chat The countries that surrendered to the NAZIs suffered greatly under the occupation. The Germans murdered 25 percent of the Polish population. Notice that the German victims formed NATO so they never again would have to surrender.