Everything is essentially written and recorded by Cincinnati native, Mark H… Read Full Bio ↴Everything is essentially written and recorded by Cincinnati native, Mark Hand. With drums recorded by long-time friend, Brad Mason. What began as a multi-track extravaganza has now become a full-fledged band. Mark has recruited past band mates to assemble a group to play his songs live. C+ Average only releases EPs to speed up the process of getting the music out there. Their freshman release, The Unification of Rock and Evil, is now available, and the second release, Drive Safe, is in the final stages of production.

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Knee Deep In Marketing
C+ Average Lyrics

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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

Stanislaus Brown

3y↑1

That was actually a very reasonable video. I like that you are not strident.

Yes, it's important to be exposed to several languages, not just in a classroom settings, but in an actual work environment.

I remember the Java craze when everybody said it would take over the world. I have precisely one Java program that I keep around on my machine - one, after thirty years in IT.

I'm sure C++ has its use cases but I've also heard that it can be difficult to debug because of all the class libraries. I suppose that can be true of any object oriented programming language.

Javascript is now all the rage but it suffers from depending on things other people somewhere else on the net may have written.

I remember a case where a programmer pulled his code from a repo and an amazing amount of Javascript applications crashed because one obscure function in his code disappeared. That's a vulnerability no one expected.

I liked the Fortan example. I've never written any Fortran myself but I do appreciate that older languages have had more time to mature and become highly optimized.

I kinda like PHP. It's certainly easy to use. I've used it as a scripting language for applications that have nothing to do with the web.

But something I find that programmers, in general, overlook, is programming for maintainability.

Good programs can last for decades. And the first thing that happens to a good program, is that it constantly gets modified.

People always want customisation, reports, changes to screens, workflow, new features, etc.

There's a big difference between programs designed to be maintained over a long period of time versus something written quickly to solve an immediate problem.

C++ was developed because of the problem of maintaining huge programs over long periods of time.

PHP was not. It has always been a quick-and-dirty-fix-it-now kind of language. Though it has improved over time. And despite its warts, it is used in a lot of websites, including Facebook.

Dysonia Multiverse News

2y↑2

I agree a lot with the key message of this video. It really doesn't matter which languages to learn so much. Sure, there are jobs listing the languages they are looking for job applicants to have. Your wage or salary is not so much about what languages you know but your education, knowledge, experience and ability. So it's that experience and ability to deliver. The languages they point to is for what they (employers) are working with and using and sometimes they just aren't ready to re-do what they had already invested in.... the issues of 'legacy' software.

Now, when I began programming, I was working with BASIC and Assembly/Machine Language for various CPUs and computer hardware platforms such as 6502 based systems (including 65c816 CPUs and microcontrollers, etc.), TMS9900 from Texas Instruments (used in TI-99/4 and 4A), 68K series, 8080/z80, 8086 through 286 and some additional stuff with 386/486 and Pentium but these later x86 systems to present, I would use languages such as C and C++ and other languages that often have compilers to produce decent performant code. For performance, back in the earlier days, programming in machine language was the best with highly tuned programming. Back then, C++ didn't yet exist in the public commercial tools in the microcomputers era. Around mid-80s, we started to see C. Then C++ was emerging around 1990. C++ was not very beneficial for 8 bit systems and it was in the 16/32 bit era that we saw the emergence of C and C++. There was a few C compilers for C but it's code was only okay but machine language code can be more performant. 6502 machine language wasn't that hard to learn. However, modern CPUs have much more complex instruction set so it was easier to program in C and C++ and other high level languages that would compile. As C/C++ compilers evolved with optimization features, the code would be performant and as computers also got faster, the time and effort to code in machine code on the newer and faster computers was quickly becoming a waste of time for highly advanced code. Over the years, I have learned the myriad of languages including QuickBASIC/QBasic, Visual Basic, Java, various web-oriented scripting/programming/etc. languages such as HTML, CSS, XML, DHTML, XHTML, PHP, PERL, Javascript, and newer stuff like Dart (with Flutter), Typescript, AssemblyScript / WebAssembly, more modern C++, etc. The languages are a long list, so it's matters to understand the software engineering principles and applying them regardless of the languages. The point of using the right tool for the work at hand that meets the requirements and that you can adequately deliver with less work because that is what employers are going to look for... time is money after all.

If you can do the job in a language that meets the requirements that you know well enough to do it in 6 months but you would have to spend 12+ months in another adequate language that meets requirements, its fairly clear what language to use.... under most employment situations, the one that requires less time is what you would be expected to use. There's real world practical considerations.

In my experience, a lot of the languages I have experience in are now obsolete in any work situations but I can tell you C/C++ is one of those languages that have stood the test of time.

Stefan, good job with the video.

LH D

I think one of the biggest issues is companies not valuing your skills
(like you mentioned some comments hone in on HR being ignorant and
just ticking off check boxes of how many languages or buzzwords you
purportedly know)....

They really aren't expecting you to be a rock star, just another cog, no matter how talented you know yourself to be.

So that's why we all took notice when companies like Google experimented with idease like giving that Friday back to their devs.
They pay you salary for the entire 9-5 Friday, but they wish you well and hope that you'll use that 20% of your work week on your own projects.

Going even further back, companies like Xerox experimented with allowing individual departments feel the full brunt of the market force.
So the legal department didn't just serve Xerox, they can serve other companies.
The sanitation department doesn't just serve Xerox, they can serve the company next door.

Basically all of these are big organizations realizing that the larger they are, the more impossible it becomes to herd the massive number of cats.

So, when you aren't feeling valued, but you know full well your worth, you need courage. Strike out and do something insane, all on your own. Especially with developers, it seems like greatness is actually not that far away.

It's a Mac Mini in a hands-off Mac Mini colo that serves both the RESTful API and the one page front page of 99.9% of iOS apps out there and a Macbook Air that you can write just about any web app or iOS app from any where on the planet. As long as you can find your zone, get hours of quietness and distraction-free space--you can bank on your incredible brain. Outside of the incredible pain of baby-sitting iOS apps you can do something else entirely--maybe a SaaS (which, when it comes down to it, is just PWA/SPA + Flask/Django + Redis + Postgres/MongoDB--it's simple sh*t). Not everyone can be the next Google, but baby steps of even rudimentary tech know-how--expertly leveraged--can move mountains.

NoName

Every programming has a natural lifecycle.

How languages respond to innovation depends on the size of the community. If the community is small, they will redesign to make it blend in the way it should, keeping it compact. If the community is large, they will add a backwards compatible extension, making the language bigger.

The result is that old languages become feature-rich but ugly. While young languages stay slim and accessible.

And then at some stage, the community reaches its maximum size because it becomes easier to rewrite, then to learn it. It gets harder to recruit employees, but there's money to spend. So, then a rewrite happens, or it gets split in multiple applications in different languages.

A nice example is how XML and SOAP got replaced by JSON and REST. Even though XML and SOAP are way more powerful, they are also way more complicated. It just got too difficult to learn.

Ruffian Eo

Does 25-ish years of C++ programming count as experienced? Well - I mostly used it in embedded programming as a less error prone and more productive alternative to C (and the C fanboys never liked it). On the desktop, my embedded software also ran in test beds (software in the loop) as one step towards running it on the embedded targets (which varied frequently in terms of OS and hardware platform).
For Tooling on the PC (stuff like generating code or configuration apps or test systems), we opted for the highest level language which also worked fine for GUI programming (was C# back then, nowadays, I would go with F# or Common Lisp).
At that point I started screening for alternatives (did not like C++11 and what came after (C++17 was more to my taste, eventually)) and I did a language tour, including the hyped functional languages (like Haskell). And to my surprise, what I now use for my explorative, prototyping, proof of concept and tooling language is none of the fancy new languages but Common Lisp. Why? High Level AND fast (if you aim for fast).

For embedded (and probably server side programming), Rust looks like an alternative if people can accept the slow tool chain (it also does a lot a C compiler does not... but still) and really want applications which have higher prospect of being reliable.

The one language I never used and probably never will (unless you pay me triple :)) is Python. The syntax makes my eyes sore and it is slow. So why would I use it if instead I can use Lisp which is closer to C speed and once you got used to it, the syntax makes sense. Python is still in the uncanny valley, performance wise - comparable to interpreted lisps of the era between 1958 and 1990 (after, Common Lisp was more a compiled language than an interpreted one).

If there was more financial and support power behind OCAML, it very well could be the high level language of choice. But sometimes it feels as if it is maintained by just 3 dudes in a basement... And when I benchmarked ocamlopt compiled ocaml, it was slower than F# on .NET core. So I moved on.

Ricky Gai

I believed this topic is depending on what we want to do.

Obviously it take years to master a programming language before we can create amazing software. Nowadays, so many frameworks are done by thousands of engineers, how can a person learns all programming languages right ?

There are two languages namely "Marketing language" and "Lifetime language". A "Marketing language" normally helps to get a job, handle fast changing projects ( eg. mobile apps ) for companies. "Lifetime language" is with you always, to build your own business because we have to stay focus and master it to produce good products.

You can measure speed of a programming language written program via oscilloscope with a loop of turning digital stream HIGH/LOW without delay().

For me, I chosen C# as "Marketing language", C/C++ as "Lifetime language".

Hopes, this helps.

All comments from YouTube:

Antonio Barba

3y↑2.3K

I didn't go to game programming because they used C++, I learned C++ because I wanted to become a Game Programmer! first, determine what you love, then learns the tools. My 2 cents.

Pluto

3y↑17

how long did it take you to get comfortable with coding? like from zero knowledge to being able to code your own small simple game/application

Antonio Barba

3y↑57

@Pluto I started very young, from age 8 more or less, I was playing around with my Commodore 64 and learned a bit of BASIC. I would say my first useful, non trivial programs were a small text editor in Delphi by the age of 14 and then a simple game in C++ by the age of 16. I was self taught all the way since the beginning

Samuel Evander

3y↑6

How did you do it? I've learned C++ basics and I'm just stuck with getting started. People use different libraries and sometimes the IDE can't open some header files or that something doesn't work. Or I simply don't understand what is going on.

Antonio Barba

3y↑20

@Samuel Evander get a good C++ book and start from there

Canardeur

3y↑20

"determine what you love, then learns the tools."

Great point, but loving the tool is also important.
For example, I love web programming, but I don't like PHP much. Fortunately, I can choose another tool, provided my boss let me choose it...

55 More Replies...

Aniket Banginwar

3y↑2.1K

So basically, its not a leading language but is used in almost all the important sections of the industry.
C++ is the coolest language.

MrjinZin0902

3y↑53

but also hardiest language. In perspective of software engineering, C++ is best tool and dream language. but learning curve is very slow. basic programmer must avoid c++ and start with any other language.

MrjinZin0902

3y↑18

Shrug I'm not saying low or high level language. I'm saying language philosophy. c++ is much harder language to understand its philosophy since c11. for example, see the boost library. even API is difficult to understand. program design is much harder and project management is nightmare.

trollnerd

3y↑16

@lol xd As someone who has used C++ a lot in the past, I find fewer and fewer uses for it lately. 99.9% of applications don't need hte performance it provides. In most modern applications, the bottleneck is not CPU performance or memory alignment, it's remote networks. JVM languages are "fast enough" if you aren't satisfied with the performance of interpreted languages for your task. With the exception of some very niche mathematical operations, JVM performance is within 10% of C performance.

Nick

3y↑22

I like C better. C++ STL is just recently getting bloated and unnecessarily complicated.

trollnerd

3y↑8

@Nick you just end up adding the same bloat with libraries like glib

45 More Replies...

Alex Vig

3y↑489

C++ is definitely worth learning, if you want to truly understand software programming comprehensively. Learning C++ is like learning Latin for computers. It's basically the Proto-Programming Language. And the languages like C#, JS, etc... are like French and Spanish that derived from Latin.

spguy

3y↑6

rust ... what about rust.

Derick Chou

3y↑9

Forth is the Latin

Alin N.

3y↑7

Imagine hitting on ladies at the bar in Latin :D ( tips fedora )

Laurynas Zubavičius

3y↑85

Latin is more likely C and not C++

Lein

absolutely

33 More Replies...

Christoph Britsch

1y↑24

c++ may be not the first choice anymore for new projects but it is 100% worth learning. Truly understanding c++ means understanding systems on a very deep level which is absolutely essential knowledge and probably the best foundation for learning any other language. Learning any language and writing performant code in it after learning c++ is a lot easier than you might think.

Hendrx

1y↑2

its far from essential in 2023

Festive Bear

43w

Honestly C is a far better language to truly learn and understad thann C++. C is a very simple, easy to understand language that doesn't have the same convoluted or hard-to-read statements as C++. Start with C, then move on to anything else.

Jack Shen

3y↑472

My first languages were PASCAL and C++. After those, all the languages used in the CS classes were much easier to pick up.

Nour Salman

3y↑4

Same, for me that was 5 years ago when I started cs, but I always thought my college was in stone age because other colleges use python as the first language instead of pascal

RoninX33

3y↑5

I started in C back in the day. I remember writing my first game and a starfield screen saver in it.

Henry Tjernlund

3y↑4

Back in the 80s most of my coursework was in Pascal. Then Fortran in the jobs I had. C++ is just too terse and arcane for my dyslexia to handle.

john sims

3y↑7

Pascal is a beautiful language.

john sims

3y↑1

@Henry Tjernlund Don't think you'd have an easy time coding a kernel in pascal

9 More Replies...

Nick Belanger

2y↑101

People don't realize that not all programming work is freelance web development. In embedded systems, C++ is only reluctantly replacing C, and Rust is a distant third.

Adrian Prayoga

1y↑1

underrated comment

uvuvwevwevwe ossas

42w↑1

Finally who does some actual work than adjusting boxes on screen

Tobias Nielsen

2y↑80

In my young days as software developer back in the nineties, i was very much language focused. It was a time it was super exciting to see what you could achieve with those languages and back then I was actually more hunting a good idea that i could use my skills to prove the greatness of my (then) limited knowledge of software development. Back then everyone talked about the langues that we needed to master. If we could that, we could do everything - no questions asked. Today we are faced with so many technical solutions far beyond the languages themselves and it requires a great overview of all the possibilities to really know what really is the most optimal solution. So here i feel experience, open mindedness and pragmatic thinking is really what makes the day for me nowadays.

Animaniac 1976

3y↑56

Beyond all the capabilities of C++ and the decision around "how many jobs are there for C++ devs", learning C++ gives you the most deep understanding for most basic elements of programming.
Seeing how pointers work and how different data structures have different reasons to exist (and a lot of other learnings) is very helpful when trying to understand why you might have problems with other languages.
You might understand why for example arrays in PHP or Perl could be running into problems sometimes and get some ideas about how to get around those problems or even why you might consider taking a different language for different problems.

NeuTrin0

2y↑2

C++ and Assembly gave me a strong foundational base in computer programming.

Goose Clues

C++ and Assembly gave me a strong headache.

Chris Carlos

3y↑198

As someone who started out learning C++in college, then ended up working for Android with Java, then I moved to C++ in the same company. You just need to learn coding not languages. I have several languages I consider to be "good" or better with. Java, Kotlin, C/C++, and C#. I can say sometimes I notice if I don't use a certain language over time I may need to startup again and have a bit of a windup time. However I usually know what I need to do, and then I need to remember how to do it in the language. That's what I think has made me flexible with my company and why I was able to transfer to different areas easily. I show I know how to solve the problems and not just code to a problem with a specific language.

George Sealy

3y↑8

Right Chris. I did projects in all of the major languages over a 30 year career. I was never out of work. You won't have to worry either, if you get laid off. Just keep your resume up to date.

Matěj Pešl

1y↑1

Those are all very similar languages. Strongly typed, compiled, object oriented, imperative.

But there's world outside of that, you know? For example JS, TS, React - those three use composition (instead of inheritance), functional paradigm (instead of object oriented), use types very differently, and work entirely different than your C#/Java/C++ langs.

Most of the principles I learned in C#/Java do not carry over, and using one language for several months and then switching messes you up.

passionate

This comment gives me motivation out of anything else on this page. Mad respect.

infinteuniverse

3y↑132

Most university students in CS or CE have at least the equivalent of 1-2 years of C++ programming experience just from classes and labs alone. For some reason, that's the preferred language of choice in academia. I remember those OS labs on thread synchronization and the computer architecture labs where we had to further optimize our compiled C++ code in x86 (at&t syntax) assembly, the lectures were in MIPS, but the labs were in x86 lmao. Good times.

Manuel

3y↑27

C and C++ is a great language for hardware, programming discrete math, digging into OS, Compiler etc and is capable of providing GUIs etc. There is no other language that can be used so versatile in teaching and it helps the students to not relearn the language for every lab. Also if you learned C++ it is quite easy to get into any other language. If you start with python it will be very frustrating to realize what you need to care about.

infinteuniverse

3y↑20

@Manuel ye, I learned JavaScript after learning C++, I miss pointers lol

Manuel

3y↑6

@infinteuniverse ouff pointers and I ... I engineer machines and therefore stayed at C++ most of the time. And thread-safety / or debugging in general with code from multiple people ... you almost always have some dances with pointers.

infinteuniverse

3y↑8

@Cortex Auth dude, I would trade all my knowledge for more competency in a more marketable skillset. All that stuff I learned in college is practically useless to employers.

22 More Replies...

Triple Eight

2y↑29

C++ was the first language I learned when I was in Uni. Since then I progressed to C#, JAVA and now I am learning Python. The only opinion I can give is the fact that for me, learning C++ back in the past actually helped me when I learned other programming languages. I agree we should not fall for these programming language wars, it is always a good idea to have at least some knowledge of other languages to increase your own chance of success. Sure, if you are an awesome Java programmer, stick to Java but it doesn't hurt to have a little knowledge of other aspects of programming as well.

Toby

2y↑2

I've found java to be the most difficult language to learn. Definitely harder than C++. That's the opposite of what I read. Still haven't got far with it.

hodayfa000h

1y↑1

oh yeah i learned basic lua(widely used to make mods) c#(useful but idk when will i use it) c++(i just want to know it)

Alex Rodriguez

45w

@Toby Java is easier than C++ in many ways, but the way that Java devs use their AbstractFactoryManagers, and the lower skill level of Java devs, it requires the skill to be able to ignore 90% of code...

metallitech

3y↑142

I wouldn't be surprised if C++ is not the most popular programming language, because of its insane complexity. Since template programming (generic programming) started, the complexity exploded. Debugging is often very hard.

albu obscure

3y↑8

Exactly, modular programming is a mess. The more basic the functionality you use the more effectively you can control what it does and debug it. But you know, pointers, memory handling and classes are hard so opting for the sloppy solutions is common.

B.B

3y↑16

That's one of the many reasons as to why I prefer C.

metallitech

3y↑6

@B.B C must be good. C++ doesn't feel low-level now.

B.B

3y↑11

@metallitech It's not about intuition but empirical data. Trust me when I say that C++ is low level enough else game Devs would not be using it. But IMHO, it's becoming too bloated.

albu obscure

3y↑24

@B.B game devs use the highest level languages out there because of the complexity involved, sound effects, interractive graphics and multiple props etc, if they wrote clean and lower level code they wouldn't be able to develop a game every half dozen years or whatnot. Check Flare:empyrian campaign, a C++ game running at the speed of light.

14 More Replies...

Svetlin Totev

3y↑24

My takeaway from this is that both embedded and high performance app development are something not a lot of people know about. Which is weird concidering how they are two of the biggest and most critical fields (obviously not very big compared to web and mobile apps but still big). And in those fields your language choises are C and C++. And that's it. There are currently no other languages even considered for those applications. The only thing that even comes close is using python through some API that was written in C/C++. So I can't see how one could call a language dead when it is literally in every robot on the plannet. Nowadays everything is being automated and behind all of this automation are 3 languages of which you always need at least C or C++.

a bastien

You can use rust for embedded as well

GeorgeHotz4President

That's the weird thing, it's not really known about, but they both (high performant systems & embedded) still pay shit, especially in the Asian job market some reactJS bootcamp newgrad will earn like 30-40% more than you, even if you work at a big finance company, and especially true if you're a C++ embedded systems dev. Only market you can find where they pay more than a typical webdev job around here is competing in the even smaller world of trading companies, where half of HFTs are in Java.

S A

2y↑9

My friend who is a software engineer said the same thing. Don’t get caught up in the language wars. He hires based on analytical skills. Stick to one language and learn logic. Currently learning Python. I expect it to take a few years to understand logic and being able to solve problems. I plan to sign up for Unclestef’s Bootcamp next year. I like his advice.

Steven K

3y↑8

I'm taking the self taught path. (I used to learn C# but stopped it altogether from getting confused initially.) Teaching myself C now, which is helping me understand Python, JS, and basically every other language. Can't wait to relearn C#, and definitely C++ which was said to be very similar to C. Thanks for promoting these important languages, being fluent in languages like C, C++ it will give you a big advantage in learning other languages, getting a job, that's what I think.

Amit

Well .. I feel your approach is the right approach 😁

xhole

any tips where to start?

Taku

1y↑2

Exactly. That why even Harvard's CS50 still uses C for fundamentals. I started with Java, then C++. Didn't get a thing until I did C. C opened a lot of doors for me. Just like you are saying, Python, JS even Java and C# it was now all smooth sailing. Where are you now bro?

1 More Replies...

Venkateswaran S

3y↑1.5K

C++ Job opening for 2 position -> 10 people applied for interview.

Javascript web dev opening for 10 position -> 100000 people applied for interview.

Rick Armbruster

3y↑180

Only dead fishes follow the mainstream ^^

Peter Kovinski

3y↑50

@Rick Armbruster it's not about mainstream, it's about simplicity, and fun.

Rick Armbruster

3y↑182

@Peter Kovinski i dont see the simplicity in competing with 100.000 other mediocre devs for fun. ^^ I rather compete with 10 of the best devs available, for seriousness and fun :D

Juan Drago

3y↑296

@Rick Armbruster that kind of arrogance is so typical in programmers/developers nowadays. The fear of almost every employer is to find these kind of people, can't work in groups and end up isolating themselves from new concepts. Almost all your value as a developer comes from you being a problem solver, and a quick thinker. Have those traits and choose whichever language you want.

Dios Ala

3y↑89

@Rick Armbruster Looks like you are the kind of developer that every company should avoid to integrate in their it teams.

33 More Replies...

Barry Mitchell

3y↑13

Using bindings to C versus using actual C are two different ballgames. A lot of computer vision application actions need the extra speed and reliability offered by C in production. If C is done right it is written once and never needs to be re-written. Python is way more fun to use but does not offer what C has for embedded systems.

Sydra

3y↑12

A strong static type system could be extremely helpful in many ways (bugs, code length, readability, code reuse). And C++ is one of the bests in that.

Future_Teknokrat

3y↑6

One issue is the downplaying of traditional CS training, which was geared towards working with engineers and scientists. With the expansion of IOT hardware, advanced embedded hardware, and space exploration, not to mention Military applications, there are literally tons of jobs outside of video games and run time applications for C++ programmers. Front end development has taken over the conversation.

Alex Rodriguez

45w

Instead of coding in C++ you could embed C into a high level language like LISP or Julia and use the high level language as a macro pre-processor. Lisp macros let you use the full expressivity and power of LISP at compile time.

rohitchaoji

2y↑5

C++ was the programming language I learned in high school, and I picked up some fundamental programming concepts through it and as a result was able to very easily pick up others, like Python, Fortran (for physics) and Javascript.

Riley Seaburg

3y↑21

The most important part about learning to code is not getting a job.

It's learning to make things that work and solve problems.

Getting a job is secondary to getting a skillet.

James

3y↑3

Exactly. And until you get a job you can cook steaks. Win win.

Adrián Gugyin

3y↑5

According to the creator of C++, it is a "language design language". Just keep that in mind. C++ is BIG and layered. Probably bigger than anything one would need for solving a particular problem, but that also means it's universal, most versatile and definitely not dead. However thinking big as Stroustrup is insane for anyone without at least 5 years of C coding experience IMO. C is the best systems programming language (enough for a lot of structuring and organizing a system - an automation tool, industrial control/monitor equipment, embedded computer, instrument/controller device, inter-device device, so, many things - from a hardware perspective) for nearly any "living" hardware out there, regardless of infrastructure, yet with the "roll your own" driver feel that of Unix/Linux systems, which other OSes hide and outsource from the developer. C++ stems from that and takes it to a very high level, yet, the use of C++ is rarely reaching this proposed level of abstraction. C++ tries to maintain the reach to the underlying system while being more application-friendly with advanced safety and security considerations, but that won't stop beginner programmers to break the rules unknowingly (it shouldn't be a surprise that most operating systems come with tons of non-standard versions and language extensions as hardware development is very out of sync with the development of the C++ standard and yes, this breeds legacy bloatware as adaptation of new tech is faster than standardization and spread of its concepts and uses). In a way, the option of bringing computer language closer to say, technical English is already available with the C preprocessor and its standard library. C++ on the other hand is for modeling and designing much less hardware-dependent software on top of already present OS/network infrastructure. That goes with a lot of extra work and newer languages with their dependencies already carried out by newer technologies (virtual machines, containers, advanced internet protocols and lots of processes hardly relatable for non-engineering disciplines) make using C++ seem obsolete - yet it's still almost everywhere. I think (rather believe :)) C++ is for the highly literate who are ready for never coming out of the rabbit hole but keep in mind that some customers write specifications in C (that's direct experience, don't ask, why :D).

Nicolai Veliki

3y↑33

I am just getting into C++ after having learned C#, Java and Javascript (and doing some code maintenance in VB6 🤮). It is quite exciting because I feel like I'm learning more about how computers 'really' work (though still not on an assembler code level, but maybe that's next). I had to do some PHP because I only had access to a shared hoster at the time, and I hated. Every. Line. Of. Code. I. Wrote. In. That. Blasted. Abomination. Of. A. Language... And that was with PHP 7.2

Petr Zurek

3y↑5

Right about PHP, everytime I see PHP code it makes my eyebrow tick. Can’t deny the raw productivity for web devs though.

Marco Geração

2y↑4

lol. you're getting to fundamentalist about languages. Any language is good depending on the context of the project. Either you understand that or you'll become too much narrow minded as some colleagues I know. Even if you crave to be specialized in some language, you should never loose perspective about what codding and programming are, all of which is independent of the language you use.

xyhmo

51w

You're living the cliche and like and dislike exactly the languages you're supposed to like and dislike as a True Coder.

1 More Replies...

Erik

3y↑17

C and C++ are used in many open source projects like for example Blender and FreeCAD, so getting involved in something like that is a good way to improve your skills and get experience you can mention when looking for a job.

Erik

1y↑1

@delko Scripting, yes. But not the performance critical things.

Kuhluh

3y↑25

Here a small fact about the industry I work in:
We do very safety critical stuff (aka, if you do a mistake, in the worst case you can cause someone to die).
Up until about 3 years back, we were not allowed to use optimizers and the only reason why we are now is, because we use 2 different ones for different parts of the product.
Reason: optimizers are too hard to predict.

Torarin Vik

3y↑12

C++ is not nearly as hard as people claim. As long as you stick to the bread and butter and don't use fancy features you will do fine. Remember the key features are statements, loops, arrays, ints,floats,strings and I/O most features are syntactic sugar anyway. You probably want to learn about classes ect. but these go into the "syntactic sugar" category :)

Andrew

2y↑1

Also for anyone reading, pointers are still very important but one of the harder things about C++

Torarin Vik

@Andrew I agree. Imo mostly because of the cluncky syntax introduced in C. I believe it was a big mistake using the star operator for multiplication, dereferencing and declaration. There should be an operator for each.

Andrew

@Torarin Vik I think the only thing that could take the place of an asterisk in C++ would be using std::unique_pointer but that can be ugly to read. But then, what symbol is there to properly represent multiplication unless we want to relegate such a basic function to something like a function or a longer operator?

Torarin Vik

@Andrew * should be for multiplication only imo. You could have @ for dereferencing, and if references didn't exist you could declare identifiers as addresses. like this for declaration: int &adddr; And maybe @ for dereferencing like this: @addr; One symbol shouldn't be three different things. Since pointes are only variables of adresses it makes sense to call it an address variable.

Torarin Vik

I think the reason why they did use the * for different things is most likely because the keyboards probably had a limited number of keys/characters when C was invented.

1 More Replies...

Derek Van Tonder

1y↑2

C++ is a powerful language, used to develop OS's too. I just recently got a very nice C++ job. It is true that there is a far smaller market for C++ devs, but that also means greater job security and typically it's better paid in the corporate world. In gamedev, you're going to be struggling with long hours and not paid well (as a rule, I left game dev ages ago so who knows?) As a purely intellectual exercise, learning C++ is a great way to improve your coding skills. In particular, learning how to optimise for cache instead of OOP is a huge win that will help you in every language. Plus you can do things in C++ that you can't do in other languages so that's always good to learn.

Georg Anatoly

3y↑13

as a C++ developer I would argue that even if you never plan to code C++ professionally it's a great language to learn due to it being low(er) level while still being able to do all the high level things your python/java/etc can do making it perfect for researching/learning CS/etc

Rasputin

What’s your opinion on rust

Tyrell Wellick

@Rasputin Ugly syntax

Rasputin

@Tyrell Wellick yeah that’s the complaint I have too but it’s actually quite good.

Stan Varganov

1y↑2

C++ is my primary and the most favorite language. During the first years of my career, I used to work with C# a lot (because of Windows) and Java. Since 2013-2014 I've been working on Linux using the latest C++ releases - C++11/14/17/20. For four years I was developing a document-oriented DBMS (Redis-like one). The last year I've been working on a highload backend for quite a popular service - we use the latest C++ in both projects. Yes, I also have to work with Python and Golang but C++ projects are always the most complicated, fundamental and interesting - this is a true CS, where you work on projects like DBMS, web-browsers, highload server-side apps, etc. This is true engineering, not just using some fancy JS/Java/Python framework/library that does all the work, where you only need to choose a proper OOP-pattern - this is unbearably boring for us, C++ developers.

Ed Gamboa

3y↑2

Last week I finally got sick of being handicapped when talking to developers. It's never been part of my job but omg we use computers for everything so I started to read about languages. I didn't even realize what the actually means. I may still not but my eyes are opening. So I'm starting from scratch. I'm digging into C ++ and python. This video was a nice encouraging lesson. I will take it all in. The right tools for the job. That was an ahaha moment. I'm encouraged thank you all who commented.

Fred Flintstone

3y↑4

PHP 3 was actually pretty good for it's time. It's not really fair or relevant to judge an old version of a language by current standards but rather it makes more sense to judge it by it's contemporaries, and at the time, PHP 3 was superior to many of them. Yes, there were some security risks, but all the methods for creating web content had security issues that had to be dealt with.

paul barton

3y↑1

C++ is used not just for games, but for 3d rendering software in general, for example Maya and Autocad, Cinema4d, Z-brush, etc. The Adobe creative suite uses it. So anything involving design, video production, and a major industry: audio production. DAW software like Pro Tools, software synthesizers, and audio effects plug-ins all use it. However, working in these areas may involve a lot of math knowledge and deep understanding of the principles of graphics and sound.

Stanislaus Brown

3y↑1

Erik Berg

3y↑52

Been a professional dev for almost six years.

These questions on "should I learn X language" feel really weird. Good developers should be able learn a new language within a week or so and be able to do their job with efficiently. My first job I knew C++, C#, Java, and a tiny bit of C. First week in they tell me I need to learn Perl for a small project. I got up to speed in a day and was writing code. I never touched it before in my life. A few months later they wanted me to help out with another project, this time in COBOL of all things and I had to get up to speed ASAP (I still have nightmares)

The best advice I ever got when I was in college was "Don't focus on whether or not you know a language when you apply for a job." Just apply, learn the language afterwards, you're going to have to do a lot of this after you get in.

エリックEric

A complete beginner here. I only just completed Mikes beginner course on python recently.
What language would you guys recommend?
I'm a musician so I would like to build an educational program in a quiz format about a musical instrument with a background picture of the instrument, a background music, and some sound effects played with the instrument, all in the program.
The program will have levels, in each of which will be questions and answer choices, and the players will be able to freely choose the level they want to test themselves in.
I don't expect to build this any time soon. I will have to go through an extensive and intensed learning before I can do anything like that, but I'd like to start with the language that's the most suited for creating the program.
My programer friend recommended me that I start with Python but I've decided that I'd rather start with the program that's the most suited for the project. And Python doesn't seem to be the one that's suited for creating stand alone applications with pics, music and sound effects based on my own research.
Thank you in advance for your answers.

Erik Berg

3y↑3

@エリックEric without knowing more specifics, python was probably recommended because it's pretty easy to pick up.

If that's not working for the project (not sure why) any language will probably be fine. Java, C#, C++, Javascript (if you intend to just have it work in a web browser).

Honestly, just pick the one you're most comfortable with.

エリックEric

@Erik Berg
Thank you for replying.
So would you say Python is still capable of powering a full on application with background songs, pics, and sound effects?

エリックEric

@IamusTheFox
Thank you for your help. So would Python be able to create a full on application with .exe file?
And just to have a better idea of how the application will run, would there be a file with all the questions, another file with BGMs, another file with sound effects, and so on and the program pulls up the parts of each file by interacting with them?
Is that how it would work?
Thank you for your help again.

16 More Replies...

Winux Worx

C++ implementation is used mainly for building the foundation of an application example a module that does direct hardware access, fast computation, or data manipulation. For example, in game development, we use Unity 3D Blueprints to write the rules and mechanics of the game but it generates C++ code in the background to build the actual computation, data processing and file management. Android and iOS is used to develop the mobile app but i can be used to call C++ libraries similar to DLL in Windows to perform the actual file IO or network processing.

Vent

2y↑3

For embedded applications, I see a lot more C than C++. Depends on whether they mean "freestanding" or something more like "embedded-linux", but still. If you're looking to get into embedded, do what the field has done and get a strong grasp on plain C and leave C++ as an afterthought.

Gianni

Yup. Especially since you'll be working in an environment where much of C++'s stdlib flat out doesn't work because you may not even have heap allocations.

Zapoy

3y↑3

I regularly use C/C++ for embedded coding, Python for general purpose coding and have a background in various other languages where I can make some maintenance but will not use to start a new project such as Java, Go, Visual Basic, C# ...
What I learned from experience is that sticking to one language is a bad practice that's pretty obvious, you should be able to adapt depending on context. But being too versatile and eventually reaching the point where you're a good developer with wide general culture, but mean in every technology is also a bad practice.
For a good balance you should be expert in few technologies and have a good general culture to be able to say when you'll not be the best developer to do the task.

León Libertario

False

Vinícius Reis

Fortran was modernized for quite some time now. Memory ‘management’ is transparent to the user and the syntax is different but not that clutter of labels and jump instructions. Besides it being as fast as it can be, at the point it can compete with C/C++, it has a very kind learn curve that makes it a perfect language to be used in early year in scientific computing and engineering. It was my introduction to programming and I happened to respect it a lot after learning a couple of other languages.

Vinícius Reis

...it is out of the scope of the video, but... Well, it was mentioned and I felt an apologetically urge! :)

Cat Man

I learned Fortran in the 90s, then once I learned C NEVER touched it again, a total waste of time IMHO. Once in a while, I will see some compiled FORTRAN units that link with C applications, but that is rare.

Stephen Antoine

all come down to flexibility. I have been a C++ dev since 2011, but also been using python since 2019. Got the job as backend dev, ends up maintaining elixir and go repos. I also write scripts to make my life easier, like generating weekly reports, and making data analysis with python.

n-o-o-n

2y↑2

i use C++ for fun/personal projects, coming from a web dev background. It does have a steep learning curve but only because it offers so many powerful features. What I wish for and partial solutions that i know of are

- error messages that are better formatted/readable
- easier use of smart pointers
- conciser, less verbose typing/syntax, especially for lambda stuff (IDEs autocompletion)
- easier use of package management (vs studio/conan)

its ecosystem is amazing but sometimes the docs could be a little more specific (looking at you boost)

Toby

2y↑1

I started as a hobbyist in the 70's doing machine code programming in hex. I then moved to a mix of assembler and BASIC during the 80's. Then during the 90's I learned a bunch of languages including C and C++. C++ quickly became my favorite language for many reasons. I specifically chose to work as a C++ Windows applications developer. Been doing it for 20 years. It was a perfect fit. Developing in other languages is a real chore by comparison.

Dysonia Multiverse News

2y↑2

Stefan Mischook

Thanks!

Mr. Berry

2y↑1

C++ isn't easy to learn past the basics, but it is very helpful. As some of the comments mentioned: High speed gaming, robotics, space programs, and high speed e-commerce. Basically anything that needs high speed and complexity.

Otherwise use C#, newer versions of PHP, Javascript, or Python. Kotlin or Flutter for mobile development.

ChemLoaf

2y↑4

Learning c/c++ is a great way to get into programming because once you clear the steep learning curve, learning other languages is a matter of picking up a reference manual. At least most other languages.

Aaa Aaa

As a software engineer who mostly uses Python and Node.js, I believe a competent programmer is easily able to transfer their skills to different languages. They should not be judged based on what language they use. However, as a former technical recruiter, I know that it is much more difficult to get higher paying jobs in the 2020's being a developer that mostly uses C/C++. Most recruiters are told by hiring managers (usually the engineering manager for whatever team is hiring) that they are only looking for people who are currently working with the language/framework that the team is working with. So while I agree it /shouldn't/ matter, it often does to the hiring manager/HR departments. I also think that the blame for this often lands on HR, when in reality HR only follows the direction of what the engineering managers tell them to do.

RM

my school CS courses went from Java (basic programming) -> C / ARM (memory) -> C++ (advanced data structure + algorithms) -> electives (stuff like javascript/ocaml/verilog/etc.)

i think this is a pretty good learning path, though i'd maybe replace Java with Python for a beginner since it is easier use (or even Scratch for someone who has never seen programming before)

Aryaveer

Bro, this tells how narrow minded society is getting. Determining a language just by LOC is shit. Just because python is ez doesn’t mean it’s good for beginners
Python in my opinion is highly overrated and misunderstood. It’s a terrible language for beginners but great in ML and back end. Take me for an example. C and C++ were my first 2 programming languages. Then I switched to Java and found it sooo easy that it took me less than a month to master its basics. Had I started with python? I would have been stuck with adapting to other languages. So my advice is that starting with the easiest part is the most terrible advice. Instead choose that one which is challenging and teaches u different things.
If u have learnt C or C++, Python ML is just a piece of cake. But if you area ‘pythonist’ then friend…….
Learning C is going to be a “bit” difficult for u to handle

Aryaveer

Note : I am myself learning python ML and have no hate for it, I am just trying to debunk this mentality of determining a language by its eziness

RM

@Aryaveer C is also a high level language

when people are learning programming initially, the language and syntax matters very little. understanding control flow, functions, variables, data structures, etc. is what matters the most, and python offers a lot of helpful abstractions for newcomers

plus they aren't skipping to things like list comprehensions for beginners if they are using python, would still just be showing how a for loop works

Gabie Dubin

i gotta say man, i am currently taking a course in c and cpp as part of my cs degree.
and while it is interesting to see where all of the other languages i used have developed from and i do like the flexability of c. i gotta say that if the course homework had been in anyother language, for example python. each exercise would have taken me 40 min's

minastaros

2y↑1

When you know C++ quite well, you can actually write much better C code, because you can at least embrace the idea if object oriented thinking. So my C code looks much different than the code from people who just learned C and got stuck with it, and who still think in single variables instead of objects.

Cesar Calderon

2y↑1

Im learning cpp because of software dev and gaming and the amount of library you can find in unbelievable since its been out for so long. But mostly because i can go very deep in memory. Its a great tool for me. But later once i have mastered it, i will probably jump on C# just because all my friends use it.
Every body tells me that they perfer other lenguages than cpp is because the other lenguage are easier and short written.

I feel like cpp is for very detailed people. If you are a very detailed person and like to manage memory consumption and every detail on your project cpp is for you.

Abhikalp Unakal

3y↑12

I think we're not paid to program so much as we're paid to solve problems - math, languages, libraries, thinking patterns ,functional vs procedural, interpreted or compiled are just various tools that you have to tackle the said problems.

skilz8098

1y↑2

It is a leading language in many fields but that is determined by the environment you are working in. It's based on context. In other words, in some trade areas it is the goto language, but it's not the leading language for every scenario. It depends on the type of job or project you are working with. If you're writing a compiler, drivers or operating systems code, game engine development, hardware emulation, avionics, navigational systems, audio and signal processing then yes languages like C and C++ are probably the better fit. A lot of your lower end boilerplate code for servers and databases again C and C++, not always but is still a good choice. If you're doing basic and simple desktop applications it still has its place as does many other languages. Now once you get to the more abstracted areas such as web development, user interfaces, etc... then other languages like C#, F#, Java, JavaScript, Python, Pearl, Ruby, Rust, etc... are probably more practical. It depends on the requirements of the application's primary tasks and goals. If it is data driven crunching through a lot of data performing high volumes of calculations with efficiency and little overhead in mind as well as wanting it to be portable, generic, modular, and maintainable code such as libraries or interfaces then C / C++ are very good choices. If the code is user event or I/O driven and there are many calls back across the bus where there is going to be known delays, then other languages like C#, Java, JavaScript and Python are probably better. If it is task driven with repeatable tasks then shell languages would be a good fit. If you're doing A.I. or Machine Learning then C/C++ Python and a few others are all good choices. It all depends on the requirements and specification of the job as well as the already existing infrastructures. In many cases it is a leading language and in many other cases it is not. Knowing what the appropriate language is for the task at hand is more important than C++ being the #1 or #5 language of choice. One thing that does make C++ so powerful today isn't just its speed and efficiency, it's also the plethora of libraries that are already out there for you to integrate into your existing code base pending on licenses and permissions.

I'm 100% self taught in C++ since around 2003-05. I started with C++ when I taught myself how to use DirectX and OpenGL, and these days I started to pick up a little bit of Vulkan. I've never worked in the field as I have done this as a hobby, yet I have very decent to a very good understanding of how the business and industry standards are. When a company invest millions into a specific platform and language and they're offering you work you will have to adapt to their environment. They're not going to switch from one format to another on the drop of a dime just because you're better at one language than another or because another language might be better for the job than the one they're using. Now in some cases if a language becomes "dead" or if the entire original code base is so old that no one knows that language and there's no one left around who originally wrote it to explain it, then they might consider updating their systems to a new format. A good rule of thumb would be to know programming concepts more than a language as that is your trade and from there to know maybe 3-5 of the most commonly used languages as tools in your tool kits.

What do you think is more important? Your ability to read and write C syntax, SQL syntax, Lisp syntax? Or is it your ability to understand containers, algorithms (sort, search, find and replace, etc...), space and time complexities, object lifetime and memory management, thread safety, compression and decompression algorithms, encryption and decryption, file parsing, version control, project management, etc? Again which of the two do you think is more important? A language can easily be picked up and learned switching it out for another. The ability to derive well structured algorithms through Pseudocode is much more valuable. If you're not sure what the Pseudocode is meant or is going to do what makes you think you're going to be able to instruct the computer to properly do it for you in an efficient and precise manner?

When you start to excel beyond that is when you'll begin to start making your own tools! Here's an example, there's a game developer who left the mainstream or AAA developer studios that used C++ as a primary language and there were some things he liked about it but there was a lot that he didn't. On his own time, he decided to write his own programming language that is slightly similar to C++ in some ways but far different as it was geared to be a language specific to game programming. He removed a lot of the overhead from various components, added in capabilities the language didn't have to offer, etc... and from that he started to make his own games. One of the latest games that I'm aware of that he written and designed is called The Witness. Understand the Hardware and how it works to better know how to get it what you want it to do! In your spare time, trying writing a few novel programs in Assembly, or try to write a program in the language of your choice that will act as a CPU with its registers, cache, instructions, etc. and design your own ISA and your own Assembler. That'll truly strengthen your skills more than any one language can! And I'm just a Hobbyist!

Mike Tribon

1y↑2

Like what u said !!! I ve just started with c++ I hope there will be no regret in the future

LH D

r k

3y↑12

I'm electronic engineer and I also create firmware for devices I design. Sometimes I also have to write small Windows applications. I learned several languages like C, C++, C#, Pascal, VHDL and assembly for different processors. Every language has its advantages and disadvantages. Every language is suitable for different purposes. In my company some of colleagues use Python but I noticed they have never learned any other language before (in my opinion Python is just for those who don't know how to program...). C++ is difficult but it is the most desirable one to use in electronic devices which include microcontrollers. There were attempts to adapt Java for writing firmware for microcontrollers but it failed and never gained popularity.

Md.Azizur Rahman

❤️❤️❤️ Well said. I am agree with you. My son , 14 years old also think so . He is learning C , and after learning C he will learn C++ . He also said that python is for those who don't know how to programming.

Aryaveer

Python is for those who don’t know programming?!,!

Dennis Koeman

@Md.Azizur Rahman No. Python is for every programmer. And I challenge your son to write a small comment driven football game in python like championship manager

NoName

edgar gomez

2y↑1

Thank you so much for your videos, I just came across them and they have been a great inspiration to stick to learning C++. One question, what technologies/stacks would you consider essential for a C++ programmer to learn. Newbie to programming here.

Stefan Mischook

2y↑2

Just stick to fundamentals of C++ and the rest will become obvious.

Maik Tremel

3y↑17

Common theme. Be able to use the best tool for the job at hand. Try to learn programming and system architecture and don't ask for specific tools to learn - you will learn them along the way when you use them

エリックEric

Completely contrary to your comment but have to ask this.
A complete beginner here. I only just completed Mikes beginner course on python recently.
What language would you guys recommend?
I'm a musician so I would like to build an educational program in a quiz format about a musical instrument with a background picture of the instrument, a background music, and some sound effects played with the instrument, all in the program.
The program will have levels, in each of which will be questions and answer choices, and the players will be able to freely choose the level they want to test themselves in.
I don't expect to build this any time soon. I will have to go through an extensive and intensed learning before I can do anything like that, but I'd like to start with the language that's the most suited for creating the program.
My programer friend recommended me that I start with Python but I've decided that I'd rather start with the program that's the most suited for the project. And Python doesn't seem to be the one that's suited for creating stand alone applications with pics, music and sound effects based on my own research.
Thank you in advance for your answers.

xhole

@エリックEric how did you start? any tips for me

Chessfan

For me as R&D engineer C++ and C are the only real choices. But sometimes i use C#, Python or Matlab(yes you can use it with other languages) as well.

Thinkal VB

3y↑12

I started with BASIC, learned around 9 other programming languages for different purposes. Still, I love C++ the most.

The Chaos Artist

3y↑2

Thanks for the insights. I'm a Django and Python developer. I have started to learn some C++ out of curiosity and to be able to compare C ++ with Python to understand better the limitations and advantages of each language.

Alexander Garzo

1y↑1

As a Python/Django developer what are your thoughts about C++ so far?

The Chaos Artist

@Alexander Garzo I didn't get very far with it before going back to focusing on Python, JavaScript and Djanog. I started learning Go in recent months. Have you started learning C++?

Ludvik Jerabek

2y↑1

I love the comment on PHP 3 vs PHP 8. PHP 8 is fantastic. Equally, C++ 20 is just delightful to use.

Alt History Sports

3y↑6

I put off learning a language for decades because I didn't know which one to go with. The truth is all languages have many similarities: variables, arrays, loops, logic. Any language you learn, you learn 50% of the rest of them too. All that changes is the syntax. Don't make the same mistake as me, learn a language, any one. It will never be time wasted because what you learn applies to all coding.

Koga Ryu

2y↑1

Lol
Exception to this is C++ sir.
Every ham needs to take this pilgrimage I think.

TechNinja's Lab

2y↑1

I practically believe learning coding isn't just about the job😁, I'm learning c++ because I see it's potentials for powerful applications

Loren Sims

C++ is still important for low-level stuff like device drivers, not just legacy code. Either way, it's good to know, but also know other types of languages with different strengths.
There's a recent surge for COBOL programmers, just like with Y2K, for massive amounts of legacy code to be updated, this time for old unemployment systems that can't keep up with the effects of this pandemic and the massive fraud attacks.

Xeverous

3y↑1

I work on a project which mixes C and C++ repositories and just roughly year ago, I was really paid for writing gotos. Yes, in some of the parts C89 and C99 is used and WE DO USE GOTO to do error handling. I don't like it at all (think how many potential bugs few ifs can have due to huge number of control flow paths) but somehow there are still project leaders who choose to use C89 or C99 in 2020+.

And no, this isn't legacy software. This is a project (partially C89) written today.

fungalwater

3y↑4

I think the problem with this is that it's main focus is on getting a job in a particular language and the paycheck behind it. The reason I'm learning c++ is to make games and be creative.

Pekka Päivää

2y↑1

I never even wanted a job but after 27 years of programming I got many. Never for the money

Andres Martinez

The way I see it, as someone who is just a nerd about this stuff (although I am a SysAdmin), C++ and other computationally efficient languages are probably going to become more mainstream again due to the end of Moore's Law and Dennard scaling. Programmers will have to know how to correctly work with operating systems and computer hardware or else they will not be able to create solutions that execute quickly compared to whatever else the workload may be on that system.

As most say, it is definitely about the right tools for the job.

Great Bullet

3y↑11

The road from point A to point B is covered with fruits.
In c++ you have to walk the way and you are able to gather those fruits.
In python, c# and java you basically teleport to B and all those fruits stay untouched.
Do you really wanna leave wisdom behind for a quick teleport and a huge replacability of yourself?

Mr. Berry

2y↑1

I like to think of it in different terms. Do you want less lines of code, easier success path, and more time for a social life (time with friends & family)? Then Python, newer PHP, and Javascript are better languages to learn in the small to mid-size markets.

Large corporate enterprise it's C++, Java, or C#.

Edekje

I have a question regarding 10:01. As a physicist wanting to get into software engineering, I've been looking for a job where I can use and improve my existing C++ skills, hoping to learn a "modern C++" style (C++11 and beyond). I recently interviewed at a small image processing company (7-8 developers). I was well suited to their role as I had almost all the skills they needed: C, CUDA, Tk/tcl. I think I could be a good employee there, but I felt a bit bummed about the fact that they use the same 2 ancient technologies as when they started 20+ years ago: C and Tk/tcl. They do not seem to care much for 'modern' technologies or practices. Am I being close-minded here or are my concerns justified that at my first job it would be better to be challenged using more modern tools.

Stefan Mischook

2y↑2

Just get that first job .. this is much more important than if you are using modern tech. You will find actually, many, many business' are using older tech. Why? Because it works well.

Ndujamz

All I can say is that if u know how to write programs in C++, there's no programming language that can be difficult to learn once u learn C++. I started programming in C++ and Java early 2000s and I can attest that to program in other languages is fairly easy.

Chris Hadjipetris

3y↑1

I was taught C during the first semester of my electrical engineering studies and C++ during the second, and our professor, who taught us both courses told us that C and C++ are the closest to machine language, and that's why they are fast

Dulge

Well yes but ASSEMBLY is the actual closest language followed by C and C++

Luc Morin

2y↑2

@Dulge bah, real programmers use binary 😝

Dulge

@Luc Morin 😂

Luc Morin

@Dulge My then brother in law introduced me to machine language around 1980. I had a Commodore Vic-20 (6502), and he showed me how to use peeks and pokes in BASIC to program stuff. I actually did some pretty cool shit with it. Ahh the good old days 😎

Dulge

2y↑1

@Luc Morin like a boss 😎

Cat Man

3y↑13

I started out in C (and assembly) 20 years ago, then transitioned to C++, in recent years I have done projects in Java, C#, and even Python. C++ is the perfect jumping point to other languages. I still love C++ the best as it is very flexible, fast, and mostly portable. My primary work is embedded.

Anton Levkovsky

3y↑5

C++ is an ugly construct on top of C with only 1 practical feature: protecting the code from being screwed up by juniors. In all other aspects it just drains thought energy for fighting with the language and increases build times to ridiculous levels. I worked with C++ for a decade and then tried to code a big project in C for fun. What a relief that was! I then arrived at the need to do template like stuff and it turned out that you can write a simple code generator for that in the same C in under an hour! You get generated C files which not only compile faster but are also easier to debug (no multibreakpointing).You can also add various customization to template generation process out of C++ scope as you please. "Everybody knows Stroustrup created C++ to increase programmer salary" is hardly a joke.

Cat Man

3y↑2

@Anton Levkovsky Whatever, I get more done in C++ than pseudo assembly C. Have fun with all your crazy macros. C is too low level for applications, it just is. Knock yourself out genius.

Anton Levkovsky

3y↑3

@Cat Man Nope, there's a whole operating system, extremely popular, written entirely in C. You didn't read my comment attentively - instead of macros I use code generation, which appears extremely easy to write.

MCD's

2y↑2

@Cat Man Everyone sucks at C++, because it's a terrible language.

7 More Replies...

Brett Morgan

3y↑215

I'm thinking half the power of languages like python and java are the libraries that are available and the supportive communities, except stack overflow of course

Stefan Mischook

3y↑16

Yep

Hemil Ruparel

3y↑34

Half is a gross underestimation. The problem with those libraries is that they breed low quality programmers who dont even know the language they are using. They just know to make the framework do what they want it to do

Eboué Béécham

3y↑31

...and I bet most of those libraries are written in C and/or C++ . .

Rick Armbruster

3y↑27

@Eboué Béécham they are, and let me tell you C++ on stack overflow will get u in depthd details, rather than a quick how to. Thats why C++ Devs are confident bastards also called elitists by the ones who are jealousy

Shriti Shaw

3y↑13

on top of that, if you need you can imitate other programming languages or can create your own programming language using C++ by creating the header file. I myself created python in C++(at least print() and input()). Thus, I used the syntax of python in C++.

11 More Replies...

Arko

3y↑2

"all languages are variations of the same theme" - particularly true. I have studied JAVA in my school for 4 years, C and R in my college and Python later - most of my fundamentals are from learning JAVA and C (I could even manage to write basic unity codes in C# just because I studied JAVA and C well - did it take me 2 hours to write a 20 minute code - yes, but I managed to do it which is what counts).

"You wouldn't pound a nail with a saw blade" - again very true. I really did not understand this during my college days (I did not study engineering so I mostly wrote mathematical simulations and not apps). Now, my current line of work requires me to write simulations which are run a lot of times(by a lot, I mean say multiple 100 million runs) and even though writing in Python makes the code relatively small and easy to modify, C does it a hell lot faster (even in python, it would be impossible without Numba).

David Dixon

1y↑2

I learnt C++ because I liked what the experienced and old school guys were doing. It's difficult and hard but it's cool/fun at the same time. Talking to old school programmers is like learning from an Old Sage from Ancient times. It's awe-inspiring.

I am a aspiring Computer Engineer that want to build and design hardware, embedded systems, robots, low-level games, game engines, system software, kernels and Operating systems. It's all difficult and I love difficulty because it forces me to think logically.

Overall, I personally believe, it's not the tool that makes the developer. It's the mind!

I also have a huge love for Python too. Not because it is a easy to learn and use. It is because I have a ball python and when I code in python...It's like he's right by my side!

rje4242

I want to second the Python/C++ synchrony. I'm constantly coming across C++ libraries that I either have to explicitly build or install for a Python library to work ( as in I just did that to get pyTesseract working today) or worse, implicitly build as part of installing a python wheel, and being made aware of that when the build fails.

Eric Smith

Some 20 years ago the talk that Python programmers gave as a plus for Python development was that programmers were able to develop programs faster than in C++. But then has anyone tried Decorators or Metaprogramming in Python ?

krakulandia

C/C++ is most often used in anything requiring speed, compact code size or full control to what is actually happening "behind the scenes" so you don't get any surprises. Basially video games, graphic/video/music making and editing software, realtime signal processing, embedded systems (all your household electrical gadgets), operating systems, etc. need to be written in C/C++. C/C++ is a systems programming language, which goes as close to the hardware level as possible, without actually being assembler language. You get about the same amount of control to what the language does. This means you don't get nasty suprises with sudden memory allocations, garbage collection, etc. in the middle of time critical routine execution.

cron coder

3y↑702

Most ppl writing articles like these are application devs, not engineers. They write code at the application level and think everything below it is dead. Modern frameworks and libraries are written in c++. Eg:- tensor flow, envoy, Google test, electron, bitcoin, grpc and so many others. Now I'm sure the author is indirectly using all of this but thinks c++ is dying or dead.

best opinion

3y↑21

Best comment.

Manny Calavera

3y↑6

Abhigya Raval

3y↑19

This is the comment I was looking for lol. With engineering, nothing beats Cpp.

Sai Akhil Katukam

Yes

Existence Denier

3y↑8

Good luck getting a job that deals with projects like this.

25 More Replies...

Shadow

2y↑1

I decided to move to cpp because jobs are more complex and fun. It is more about creating technology/tools that other people use. Competition in web, mobile development is crazy . After 8 years of working in industry as web developer, mobile developer, unity developer and c++ developer. I can say that c++ has best jobs and friendlier people. (Less pressure, better pay, ...)

Darren Evans

The latest C++ standards improvements have made the language itself much less impenetrable. The question of jobs in the industry is a more interesting question. Its one weakness is in the scarcity of open source library ecosystems like NPM for Javascript etc.

William Castro

QUESTION: how long should you learn and practice using a language and know it well enough before you learn a second language? 3 months? 6 months? 1 year? I've been Practicing Python and writing basic code for the past 2 months. I am asking because I decided to stop my independent studies on Data Science because entry requirements to land a job in NYC is very high! for every 10-developer job I see posted I only see 1 posting for Data Science. Therefore, I switched to web development because I find this profession exciting and rewarding as well. I invested already 1 month and 2 weeks already on Python should I learn Python as well as JavaScript? OR focus 100% in JavaScript and learn Python later, thank you for reading.

Taku

How are you so far? Were you able to finally get the job

William Castro

@Taku I'm focus on full stack using JavaScript. At the moment I'm creating projects and improving skills. I recently started applying because I think I'm ready. But I am in the process of updating my resume and I have to add my github account to my resume.

ChrisM541

Absolutely, it's ALL about that age old phrase, established well before we crawled out of the sea...always use the best tool for the job.
If that phrase isn't instinctively true for a programmer then they've either just graduated, or, limited themselves to too few languages (not an issue if you and your employer are happy with the toolsets in use).
A more interesting question would be: are there any languages that have been superseded?
As a leading 'tool for the job', C++ ain't leaving us any time soon - then again, assembly language might expand O_O

Ruffian Eo

David Harabagiu

3y↑10

I understand that if I know a language and I'm a good developer I can jump effortlessly to another language, but the HR people don't get that. The just ask me if I have X years experience in Y language, this is all they care about. I'm currently a C++ dev with 3 years of experience. I would love to be a back end web dev due to being more opportunities there, but for those roles they also ask for experience with technologies like AWS and Docker. I would have to throw these 3 years in the bin and start from scratch with an entry level salary. This is why I feel kinda stuck and don't know what to do with my career. Build up more C++ experience to gain access to those senior C++ roles (which are a lot more plentiful), or start with something new?

Seytsuken

3y↑1

Then go for it. Accept being paid less for a couple years and you will be a mid level in no time

Piki Mk

Dude.... same here

Toby

2y↑1

I prefer C++ as a language, conceptually and architecturally. It's that simple. And I've been fortunate to have been a C++ developer for 20 years. There is no way python or java or JavaScript could have worked for us.

Andre Yamba Yamba

2y↑1

You can write code in any language you like. Someone has to provide you with an operating system an editor and a compiler/interpret, you will need C/C++.

Daniel C

I am in the Robotics field using ROS. I need to use C++. Unfortunately it isn't a choice I can make. Like many other comments here, choose what you want to do first, and then learn the available tools, such as a programming language.

AlberTesla

2y↑1

I learnt C++ because I was taught C in my college days and It might sound foolish, but I learnt C++ because it has OOP concept and I will also learn Data Structure too.

Toby

2y↑1

C++ is not an OO language per se but it does support OOP. What I love about C++ is it's flexibility and power. You can use classes as user defined types or you can use an OOP appraoch or you can do low level system stuff like C or you can mix it all together. And if you need complex containers or algorithms, they're there too. You get all of that plus high performance.

Pieter van der Meer

Used it a lot previously.. until I discovered Rust. All the high performance stuff I once did in C++ I now do in Rust. Learning curve is steep at first, but then it's "turtles all the way to the bottom": extremely predictable and safe. In C++ some UB bugs always came back to bite me in the ass..

Koti Mara

2y↑3

From a junior web developer's perspective -> With the advent of webAssembly, C++ is "Cool" again🤩. Now we might be able to create powerful graphical applications (likes of photoshop, blender) that run on browser. I learned basic C++ in my high school and after 6 years, now I'm learning C++ again.

কাঁঠালের আমসত্ত্ব

2y↑1

C++ takes a life time of commitment at least that's what I feel after 3 years of professional programming. Just couple days ago I realized a reference member variable makes it nearly impossible to define a copy constructor! Learning never ends in C++

Evan490BC

Yes, but this makes sense, doesn't it? A reference is just an alias bound to a unique variable, you're not supposed to copy it.

কাঁঠালের আমসত্ত্ব

@Evan490BC it makes sense. However, i was trying to avoid copying large data sets, so decided to use a ref varaible. It didn't occur to me that this would deter defining a copy constructor later if needed. I can't keep every possibilities in mind when I code 🙁

Evan490BC

@কাঁঠালের আমসত্ত্ব I completely agree with you! The complexity of the language and its special corners is insane. The C++ committee must simplify the semantics asap! Even if they forked the language into a "legacy" and a "modern" one and then have some switches at compile time. Otherwise languages like Rust will dominate in the future.

Dimitris

3y↑1

Well, you do not learn languages in a vacuum. You focus on what work you can or want to pursue, and then build your toolkit. Only a beginner has to worry about where to start blindly. And even then it's not like you learn one language and you are done. A dev never stops learning. If you think otherwise, you are in for a surprise in a few years

Michael Copple

2y↑1

Stef, (I believe it was Stef, I am thinking I am wrong as I type. Stef, smack my hand if I'm wrong.), has made a vid before delving into the concept of taking your knowledge "while learning" a language into the realms of Open Source and playing with features in these programs based on their base code. Take the program and expand your knowledge within these programs, furthering your skills and portfolio above and beyond just these simple projects that are very cookie-cutter for job placement. It does look good when you interview.

The Software Project

1y↑1

C++ is definitely not dead. it is still one of the most used programming languages today.

MD josh

To me, anyone who hasn't read K.A Albert's book " Computer programmer's Golden Book: Final words to the struggling coder" will always have difficulties when coding

Beats basteln :3

3y↑5

people who make lists about where c++ is needed and used consistently forget to mention audio software, even though that is
1. literally the coolest stuff you can do with it or at least on a similiar level than games
2. super relevant because auditory senses are literally one of our human senses and what makes us living beings
3. requiring very specific properties, not only the speed of performance, but also certain threading issues that you don't see anywhere else
4. a field where coding becomes not only a technical process but also one full of creative decisions.

people forget about c++ in audio development because all they care for is money. i'm really annoyed by the majority of programmer communities, because all they ever want to achieve is having a job they can buy a tesla with. what about just making cool applications and get reasonable amounts of money to just be happy with it?

TubesockRudesock

2y↑1

This sounds super interesting. Can you share some of this audio goodness? As a kid I loved playing around in 3D audio landscapes and now 25 years later, nothing sounds as cool.

Beats basteln :3

2y↑1

@TubesockRudesock my channel happens to be mostly about audio programming so i can recommend it if you wanna see some vst plugin development stuff

Michaël Jules

3y↑1

I don't use C++ daily anymore because of the application I'm tasked to work on. Some newer programming languages get the job done faster and in many cases fit the bills for management. At the end of the day, I'm tasked to use what makes sense to the task at hand.

Michael Costa

The problem is, as I am back in school for computer science, the schools aren't offering good courses in languages. The only languages they offer advanced courses in are C# and Java. Python was only used in Introduction to Programming concepts and C++ only has a basic level course, essentially an introduction to basic syntax.

I am going to have to teach myself advanced C++ concepts to add them to my tool belt and I feel this leaves me more unprepared than it should. I can actually take more courses in Visual Basic than C++.

David Dixon

Visual Basic isn't used anymore. Choose the language you like the most and learn a language basic features. After you comfortable with the basics, learn DSA(Data Structures and Algorithims using that language), then OOP and other advanced concepts. Make sure you build projects utilizing the topics your learnt and build real world projects for your Github portfoilo. Once you are comfortable with the lanaguage (intermediate or advanced level), learn a second language. For me, I believe you learn learn a static and dynamic language of your choice. When you trying to find a job, you will be tested on your knowledge of OOP, DSA, Software development and engineering principles and methods and Problem Solving skills not the language itself.

This is all ramble but I believe you can do it!

Osita Egenwe

C++ is absolutely amazing. it sounds strange that some see it as weird, many deep tech expert loves c++.

I think if you drive into c++ on the basis of passion you will enjoy it. It is so beneficial.

Most ML libraries are written in c++. embedded systems, games development, graphics development, trading systems, high performance and parallel Computing, cyber security, system programming, browser development, machine learning back end, Android development, high tech especially in space technology, avionics, robotics, satellite 📡 technologies, Quantum computing along with python etc the domain for c++ is so huge.

It is a dominant programming language when it comes to performance. It is absolutely amazing.

Ezequiel Regaldo

C/C++ never die, its fast, clean syntax, complete, now you can choose between manual memory handling or GC, its everywhere AND most important: there isnt large bussiness behind. When i use languages like JS i miss featutes like strong typing (i know, TS solves that but i hate add more dependencies if are not trully needed). Please hear my call, JS need strong (optional) strong typing lol

Ricky Gai

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