the enchantment
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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

@richardhealy

I have just started to play as an enchanter wizard (yuan-ti pureblood) in a Call of The Netherdeep Campaign.

Within the world, there are factions such as The Cobalt Soul and The Cerberus Assembly who guard knowledge.

I am seeking mind control spells to free my human mother help captive and ensorceled in a yuan-ti temple by a Devil of Torryg.

I hadn't considered the Dream spell before now, but I might make that a sub-goal for my character so I can contact her bypassing the control of the devil.

Our DM gave everyone a 1st level feat, so I took Metamagic Adept for Quickening my action economy and subtly casting my enchanting magic.

As a yuan-ti I get Suggestion natively. That's going to be fun. Enemies abound too.

"Why don't you ... learn to play the piano."
"Our spies are everywhere, and you are surrounded."

@LordNerfherder

40w

Solid thoughts with a rather liberal in interpretation of rules that usually causes a lot of issues in prewritten campaigns in particular. Honestly though, unless the campaign goes up to Split Enchantment (10 levels) - it is better to be a political campaign player by playing a bard or sorcerer with a high natural charisma to amplify risky spell usage with rhetorical prowess, charm and grace. Sorcerer especially have a lot of metamagic to amplify the incredible spells. Causing disadvantage on the save, extending duration, range or removing the verbal/somatic components is incredible powerful if you like subterfuge and want to play higher stakes.

Charm person: "When the spell ends, the creature knows it was char⁠med by you." Not "you can freely get rid of the downsides of this spell with simple tricks". Honestly, this is a very important downside. This is the only reason that this is a level 1 spell. You cannot simply skip out on the downsides of the spell and just freely take all the benefits. Not cool. This can be partially mitigated by being brilliant, but not free. "They know it is you.".

Verbal components absolutely cannot be just talking or whispering. It is explicitly against the rules. Verbal components are designed to be possible to be identified as a cantation/chant/magic words by common folk with normal intellect. This is by design and there are ways you can pay to get around this, but only by paying for it. You cannot skip out on costs or downsides and reap all the benefits.

Hypnotic Gaze really isn't an effective way to be an "assassin that just hypnotize and murder everyone". As soon as they hear anything the jig is up. You are invisible, not impercievable. For the same reason you can freely attack someone invisible or hiding in darkness but at disadvantage that you frequently use against the monsters, they can too as soon as you are not "hiding" by beating their stealth anymore. Making noise or taking actions or killing someone is also likely to cause further checks to be noticed. The enchantress is also poor at following up against a target that is hypnotized, so much so that using your first unnoticed action to walk into melee with for example a patrol of guards is ridiculous compared to using other methods or spells from afar. A much better example was your first example, if someone gets up into your face you can just look back and they just blank.

Instinctive charm also shares the same flaw. It is generally best when multiple targets are up close and personal with you or from ranged attackers who generally are close to their friends. This is infact, until the twin enchantment the first actual use of the otherwise pretty subpar subclass. That's where it REALLY gets going. Doubling enchantment can be incredibly powerful.

Also.. dont forget to warn that antagonistic play against the players is GENERALLY a bad thing. Keep in mind that while severus snape was nice at the end and a cool character, but disgusting during 5 full books. Dont do that to your friends.

@kwaksea

2y↑1

Subtle Spell though Meta Magic Adept make you cast spells during social situation without suspision or worry for Counter Spell.

Come to think of it, how does Silent Speech from Telepath would work with Enchantment spells?

Dont you want to throw something heavy to the face of the guy who is talking with you when that guy starts to speak incantation and does weird hand motion?

Disguise Self idea is good though.

It is rather sad, the design team did not account for noise lv for the verbal component.

All comments from YouTube:

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Follow along and master the School of Enchantment #Wizard subclass in #DND5e with my comprehensive article on the topic: https://www.flutesloot.com/how-to-play-an-evil-enchantment-wizard-in-dnd-5e/?utm_source=youtube

@TwistedTentacleInn

2y↑9

Enchantment is my favorite wizard subclass. As you laid out, they can be pretty villainous if you want them to be, and they can be very mysterious too. I like the angle of a special type of assassin or infiltrator into enemy monarchs and such. Also can make some pretty interesting witch-type characters.

- The Innkeeper

@FlutesLoot

Hey TTI! I absolutely agree. It's such a fun subclass with versatile options. :)

@blackpeoplestorytime802

2y↑6

This is a nice breakdown and review. I find myself returning to Treantmonk's enchantment wizard videos a lot because enchantment wizard is my second favourite wizard and I've been dying to play one. I would have appreciated some tips on playing a "Good" enchantment wizard since feel everyone sees it as an evil subclass. 100 different friendly/nice necromancer PC concepts, but not one example of a enchantment wizard who had trouble making friends and started studying so they could get better at talking to people.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Ah man, I thought I was being original by focusing on the wicked angle :P I love the subclass, good or bad.
Much of the advice I gave still applies because people will view you differently if they know what you can do. The roleplaying would be less about keeping secrets and more about helping people solve their problems. "You two could work things out if you just had a mediator... ME!" "Do you want me to remove that trauma from your memory?" (these are things I actually found myself doing when I was playing up the clueless-to-emotions nature of the Yuan-ti).
If I played an Enchanter with a good alignment, I might use K-pop idols for inspiration, lol.

@TheSinisterheroes

2y↑4

Wow awesome video!!! I love and share a lot of the ideas you presented!!! Great job

@FlutesLoot

Thank you, Danny! It's a fantastic character to play.

@Conshey11

2y↑1

Hey Flutes, thanks for the call out! It was a lot of fun having your enchanter in the group. You always had me guessing hahaha.

As always great video.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Thanks for running a superb game where I could use the character concept. I had wanted to play it in two campaigns prior, but realized it wouldn't fit those groups/games. You rock!

@scottburns4458

2y↑1

Excellent video!

Really enjoyed watching this

Cheers

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Thanks for the kind feedback, as always, Scott! :)

@andrewbriggs2692

16w

swashbuckler changeling multiclass enchantment wizard. plays on the social and constant face changing. being close give options for sneak or hypnotic gaze.

@chrisa7875

Thanks for this video! Good content, good voice, good clips. 🧙‍♂️👍

@FlutesLoot

Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad the video was enjoyable.

@abergstrom918

Useful. I'm playing a "bladesinger cop" in a Dragon Heist campaign and this is even helpful to to understanding Enchantment spells

@FlutesLoot

Yeah! Enchantment spells are important to understand, even if they're not the character's specialty. Without the Enchanter's Split Enchantment feature, they can be risky to spend spell slots on.

@nicholascasey6473

24w

Geas is best used on crestures that the 5d10 damage would really suck, or long term high hp creatures. The 5d10 damage interrupts rests still wasting 6-8 hours with damage needing them to take another 6-8 hour rest within 24 hours or start suffering exhaustion.

@grendlew1487

2y↑1

Good video! I also carry detect thoughts so u have more information on who to be concerning what subject

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Good note! Detect Thoughts is extremely useful for this type of character.

@eitberko

51w

Great breakdown! I was just thinking of a very similar character: use fizban's emerald dragonborn, but reflavor it as a mind flayer. It gets all the classic illithid powers, just scaled back to be a playable race: mind blast, levitate, telepathy, psychic resistance. You can obviously play anything once it's a playable race, but if you want to lean into classic lore, enchanter wizard is the best. GOO warlock and aberrant sorcerer sadly double up on the racial powers (you could do the sorcerer with a reflavored githzerai from MotM, though), and the whispers bard is too much of a frontliner to be a believable illithid, so wizard really hits the right flavor. Take knight as your background and you even get a little entourage of thralls to follow along on your super evil quests. Mind control everyone, do psychic damage when you're cornered, and feast on brains.

@FlutesLoot

51w↑2

That's a really cool idea. You could totally reflavor the emerald db as a mind flayer.

@ImprovandRPG

Heck yeah! I'm jealous, I've never played a game all the way to level 20. I love those questions at the beginning, because I could def see running into problems of having a fistful of charm person stuff while diving into a dungeon. XD

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

Oh, absolutely! In fact, the first session I ever played of Rime of the Frostmaiden had the party's Cleric cast Hold Person on someone, and afterward someone said they wondered if the target was undead. I said that couldn't be because Hold Person only works on humanoids. The DM then was like, "Oh, wait." LOL :P
It's such an easy detail to miss. Diversifying spell options is critical.
And playing this Wizard from low levels to level 20 was a blast. I had wanted to play an enchanter for about two years, and I'm glad I waited for the right campaign to play it.

@ImprovandRPG

@@FlutesLoot Ooo I dig that! Haha, absolutely!
How did the stealing the object from your party mission turn out?! That sounds like it'd cause a ton of drama, haha.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

This was actually really fun. I needed to take a hiatus from the campaign, so it actually worked perfectly to make my exit until my eventual return. We had just defeated a dragon who was corrupted by necrosis, and it exploded when it died, killing the party's paladin. During the dour recoup, I asked the Bard (holder of the item, which was essentially a key to controlling an army of constructs) to speak with me in private. I asked if he trusted me, and I told him I needed the orb (the item I needed). He said he understood but he could not part with it.
The reason I needed the item was that a vampire, part of a necromantic syndicate, had tasked me with getting the orb. My reward would be that their vast undead armies who were kept in numerous tunnels below the continent would be used to aid the Yuan-ti in a coming conflict. Naturally, failure would have its own consequences for me.
I told the Bard that I was sorry, but I needed the orb. I then cast Modify Memory to incapacitate him for a minute (even his Lucky feat didn't help him with the save) while I took the orb and replaced his memory with he and I being swarmed by undead forces who took me captive and they took the orb. In reality, I just took the orb and departed quietly.
Later, the party roleplayed that they didn't know what really happened by assaulting the vampire who supposedly took me, trying to get me back.
When I eventually appeared, I revealed that I was actually a Yuan-ti, and I was truthful from that point forward. The character development was incredibly fun. It was also kind of fun that I got to play different versions of the character based on whether I was using my alias or my true self.
The orb and the necromancers became quite the foes, so there were definitely consequences for my actions. In short, one reason I chose to play this character was that the DM assured me the group was mature enough to enjoy it (I hadn't met the players before, and I wasn't joining until they had played for a few months). This is why I stress the importance of communication with this type of character because it can easily alienate other players if they're not ready for it.

@ImprovandRPG

@@FlutesLoot heck yeah! That’s amazing, it sounds like a fantastic group to play with!

@AgentForest

I have a very different enchantment caster, lol. The Enchantment Wizard is really cool, and I might play one in a one-shot sometime, but mine was a Glamour Bard. Took it a VERY different direction.

He had 6 Battle Master Fighter levels, as he was a mercenary, but he'd worked his way up the ranks and become a commander. He didn't play music so much as tell war stories as his bardic "performances." I didn't really give him any damaging spells, which wasn't too bad, as he had fighter levels, and he hadn't really joined the party until halfway through the campaign, and they had a pretty balanced party already. So I brought him along to amplify what they already did well.

He'd use his bardic inspirations to grant 5 people temp HP and let them move without taking opportunity attacks, essentially letting me shout out battle formations. He also could concentrate on a feature that let him cast Command as a bonus action every round for a minute. Essentially, whenever this halfling shouted orders, they happened. This led to some fun battlefield scenarios. Once I bonus action commanded an enemy to kneel and fired over his head at the injured guy behind him to drop the one who would have had cover (DM decided to let some simpler commands work instantly, but more complex ones like "retreat/flee" would happen on the enemy's turn rather than when cast). We also have a Hexblade Lockadin smite monster, so Hold Person has gotten its fair share of use. There was also a time we were being sniped at by some spell caster flying above us, and I cast Fly on the paladin, then used Mantle of Inspiration to give him some temp HP and let him close almost the entire distance before his turn even started, getting him right in the guy's face. I also could give up one of my attacks with Commander's Strike to let someone else who hits way harder than me attack instead, like our Paladin or Barbarian. I've used Compulsion to force enemies to eat opportunity attacks, Suggestion to force an enemy to check his inventory to make sure he still had those 3 potions his friend gave him (he didn't have any potions). This kept him very busy and essentially took him out of the fight until we'd dealt with the others. I also discussed with the DM various command words I could use and what expectations we could have. A fun one was "surrender", as it meant different things to different enemies, and let the DM decide if this meant the guy would flee, cower, lay down his arms, etc. So I could toss this bonus action out, and still have an element of surprise regarding how the fight unfolded (kept things spicy).

I think that's my favorite thing about enchantment magic though. There are SO many ways to flavor it. Master manipulator, spy, gossip queen, or even a tiny halfling with a battlefield presence so intense that people just feel compelled to follow his orders.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

That sounds like a very fun character! I enjoy the versatility of enchantment characters. My preferred style is to play a support character, and enchantment spells/abilities lend well to that.

@TheRawrnstuff

I like the Glamour Bard concept. But personally, I've been toying with the idea of Eloquence Bard instead.

Especially if the DM is banning Silvery Barbs, the Eloquence Bard's Unsettling Words can pretty much quarantee that your enchantments land properly - albeit you do have to commit to it with a bonus action before attempting the cast.

But honestly, every single one of the Eloquence Bard's features would be useful - or at the very least highly themetic - to an enchanter.

@FlutesLoot

@@TheRawrnstuff Eloquence is powerful, for sure.

@TheRobversion1

Good discussion on the enchanter though i'd say most of these inputs you're making work better on the aberrant mind sorc.

i agree with most of what you're saying as well except for propping up charm person/monster. Twisted tentacle inn (he also commented on this vid recently) has a great discussion on charm person/monster and how bad it is or at least replicated by using your skills.

i think most people don't prop up hypnotic gaze which i think like you is a great ability (non-concen control) is because it consumes the player's action (and thus can't cast spells). the key here, just like i pointed out in your artificer vid for the alchemist) is to have strong bonus action economy and that means a 3 or 2 (with metamagic adept) level dip into sorc. delaying 1 spell level known progression is fine as you keep your spell slot progression while also gaining access to quicken and subtle spell for more than 1-2x a day (font of sorcery). hypnotic gaze would be so much more valuable if you can maintain it while quicken casting other useful control spells like hypnotic pattern. starting sorc 1 also gets you that con save prof.

another thing about hypnotic gaze is that alot of people misread it to once per long rest. it's actually once per creature per long rest. so you can use it a bunch of times before long resting as long as it's on different creatures. instinctive charm works the same way.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑2

Thanks for joining me in propping up Hypnotic Gaze! :)
I've received several comments about how Sorcerers would be better for this (Metamagic would be very useful), but I'm sticking with the Enchantment Wizard. I like its class features and flexibility too much. I can use the Metamagic Adept feat if I want to subtly cast Charm Person. I found it was better to be flexible with my spells, rituals, and features than to have Metamagic.

@TheRobversion1

@@FlutesLoot its possible to have both as mentioned with a multiclass. A sorc 2 dip is not a costly investment and with good returns. Just my 2 cents however and of course i understand this build was in the past already. :)

One thing to note her on spell flexibility, there's not much difference between the sorc and the wiz until level 9 (wall of force) or level 13 (clock sorc). Sorcs have all the good spells the wizard have until these levels aside from rituals (which again is easily picked up with ritual caster)..

@richardhealy

@FlutesLoot

1y↑1

That sounds extremely fun! I'd love to play this type of character in the Exandria setting. I highly recommend exploring the Dream spell.

@richardhealy

1y↑2

I have just asked my DM about using it. It might be a great moment for role-play when I can describe the fantasy setting and the appearance of a woman none of the other characters know about and just whisper "mother" and she turns. And how long the dream lasts before the devil of Torryg notices.

@LordNerfherder

40w

@FlutesLoot

40w

Thank you for your notes! I think I was misunderstood as if I have a liberal interpretation of the rules, but I've really just seen the game run so differently by different DMs that the questions I encourage players to ask DMs seem essential to me to sync up expectations.

@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube

23w

And the Barbarian receives a sentient axe. That just so happens to be a better enchanter than the one in the party and is jealous..

@FlutesLoot

23w

Is this what happened in your game?

@kwaksea

2y↑1

@FlutesLoot

I agree the lack of clarity about verbal components is disappointing for the game design. It's not something I want to ask DMs about every time I play.
If I'm not mistaken, I think I covered your point about Subtle Spell and Counterspell in the video. Maybe I didn't specifically connect the two, though.

@kwaksea

@@FlutesLoot Oh dear, I missed it.
It is rather funny that 10th lv Enchanter who can Split Cast Hold Person would be the best Crit Fisher.

@FlutesLoot

2y↑1

@@kwaksea <3 <3 <3

@kwaksea

2y↑1

@@FlutesLoot BTW, I think if Caster 1 is casting Spell in Social Situation,it needs to be recognised as casting Spell if such spell needs Verbal and/or Somatic (might needs Arcana Check to know what kind of Spell is casted) by Caster 2 if Caster 2 is within 60ft of Caster 1 since, Spell Caster 2 needs to recignise casting Spell from Caster 1 in order to cast Counterspell in order to cancel such spell.

I know it is essentially rule lawyering, but this is best rationalization I can come up with.

@FlutesLoot

@@kwaksea yes, those components would signal that a spell is being cast, thus warranting a Counterspell.

@Oathbreaker.

Dhampir Enchantment Wizard ...

@FlutesLoot

1y↑1

Get that hypnotic vampire charm vibe

@ericpeterson8732

So why an enchanter instead of a bard or a sorcerer? I don't see the benefits of a wizard who specializes in enchantment rather than the Cha based spellcasters.

@FlutesLoot

Because of the Enchantment Wizard subclass features, spell selection, and the Wizard's base class features.

@TheRawrnstuff

Bards and Sorcerers don't get Wizard features, like the Spellbook.

If you just want a charismatic "enchanter" type caster, a wizard might not be what you want. But, if you want the Wizard suite for your enchanter, you have to go wizard.

Also, to a much lesser extent, your choice of class could could be critical for certain feats you might want. If your concept is an enchanter that uses an artisan's tool as a spell focus (available with the Artificer Initiate feat - underwhelming as it might be), you need Int-based casting.

Finally, an enchanter wizard is almost certainly more knowledgeable and better at investigation due to their high Int score and class proficiencies. You don't want to choose a wizard if you consider those skills useless, but it would be really hard to reach the same level with, say, a sorcerer.
Basically, it boils down to what do you want your adventurer to do while not casting those spells.

@Rubycule

Some of these questions at the beginning are phrased a little bit to combative and/or manipulative imo. If someone gave me that, I'd second guess if I really want that player at my table (even though I think I'm a really forthcoming GM in that regard).

@FlutesLoot

Thank you for pointing this out! I'll see if I can clean those up.

@TheCyberguy101

Why not go sorcerer with this?

@FlutesLoot

I like the Enchantment Wizard's bulk of known spells known and its features that compliment the playstyle, especially Split Enchantment without needing Sorcery Points for fuel.