No Salvation
Eastern Lane Lyrics
Jump to: Overall Meaning ↴ Line by Line Meaning ↴
In search of a morning in waiting line
There is no salvation x4
In need of a morning, in hope of a dawn
In search of a saviour, but moving along
There is no salvation x4
In hope of a saviour, but waiting in line
There is no salvation x4
No salvation...
In search of morning (no salvation)
In hope of a dawn (no salvation)
In need of a saviour (no salvation)
I'm moving along (no salvation)
There is no salvation x3
The lyrics of Eastern Lane's song "No Salvation" express a sense of desperation and hopelessness in the face of an uncertain future. The singer seems to be searching for meaning and purpose, whether it be through religion, relationships, or simply the passage of time. However, all of these searches ultimately prove fruitless - "there is no salvation" to be found anywhere.
The repetition of the phrase "in need of" and "in search of" underscores the singer's sense of longing and urgency. They are actively searching for something to fill the void in their life, but are consistently met with disappointment. The final repetition of "no salvation" serves as a refrain, emphasizing the bleakness of the situation.
Overall, the lyrics suggest a feeling of disillusionment and despair, as the singer realizes that they may never find the answers they seek. The song is a poignant meditation on the human condition and the existential struggles we all face.
Line by Line Meaning
In need of a saviour, in need of time
Desiring a source of deliverance and more duration
In search of a morning in waiting line
Looking for a new beginning while waiting in queue
There is no salvation x4
Repeatedly asserting the lack of rescue or redemption
In need of a morning, in hope of a dawn
Longing for a fresh start, anticipating a promising future
In search of a saviour, but moving along
Seeking help, but still progressing forward
No salvation...
Emphasizing the absence of salvation
In search of morning (no salvation)
Looking for a new beginning without any hope of rescue
In hope of a dawn (no salvation)
Anticipating a promising future, despite the lack of redemption
In need of a saviour (no salvation)
Desiring a source of deliverance, while recognizing its absence
I'm moving along (no salvation)
Continuing to progress forward, despite the lack of rescue or redemption
There is no salvation x3
Reiterating the absence of rescue or redemption, three times
Contributed by Layla R. Suggest a correction in the comments below.
my name is......
By Grace through Faith
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 (A)For by grace you have been saved (B)through faith, and that not of yourselves; (C)it is the gift of God, 9 not of (D)works, lest anyone should (E)boast
Roman 4:4-5= Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [a]as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,(Me= the works of Abharam is not the same as the law of works, why? Because the law came in the time of Moses and Moses was born about 300-400 years after Abharam died.)
Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when (A)the kindness and the love of (B)God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 (C)not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through (D)the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 (E)whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace (F)we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, (A)not according to our works, but (B)according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus (C)before time began,
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 (A)Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who (B)according to His abundant mercy (C)has begotten us again to a living hope (D)through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [a]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, (E)reserved in heaven for you, 5 (F)who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ephesians 2:5 (A)even when we were dead in trespasses, (B)made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Romans 5:1
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
5 Therefore, (A)having been justified by faith, [a]we have (B)peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
______________________
2 Timothy 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known (A)the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:8-9
8 And (A)the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, (B)“In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 2:16
16 (A)knowing that a man is not [a]justified by the works of the law but (B)by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not (C)by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:22-24
22 But the Scripture has confined (A)all under sin, (B)that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [a]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore (C)the law was our [b]tutor to bring us to Christ, (D)that we might be justified by faith.
MyNameIs Jeff
DISCLAIMER As the convo has been worked out ive edited this comment in the interest of charity. All Orthodox must believe in extra ecclesium nulla salus, but there is more nuance on this point than some may think and the main purpose of these comments is to point that out.
Fr. Staniloae did believe that outside the canonical limits of the Orthodox Church the sacramental grace that remained within certain heterodox communities, corresponding to their closeness to the Orthodox Church, could have a positive influence on their ultimate salvation. I will give the full context this video left out. Firstly, Fr. Staniloae says regarding heterodox confessional bodies:
“But then the question is raised: What are the various Christian denominations that do not confess such an intimate and working presence in them of the full Christ? We consider that they are incomplete churches, some closer to fullness, others farther away from it. Contrary to Metropolitan Platon, who considers that all denominations are equal partitions of the same unique Church, the spirit of the Orthodox teaching and tradition compels us to consider that the non-orthodox confessions are partitions that were formed in a certain relation to the full Church; they exist in a certain relationship with her, but they do not partake of the light and of the full power of the sun, which is Christ. Consequently, in one way the Church comprises all the confessions separated from her because they could not be completely separated from the tradition present within her. In other words, the Church in the full sense of the word is the Orthodox Church… Objectively and subjectively, other Christian confessions know Christ, but not fully. Those confessions have in this way gained in part the quality as churches of Christ, being called to their full realization as the Church of Christ… This church exists all the more in other Christian formations, given their relationship with Christ the incarnate Logos through faith, and given that they partly have a common faith in Christ with the Orthodox Church, the full Church… (Dogmatics Vol. IV, pgs 66-67.)”
According to Fr. Staniloae other Christian confessions retain remnants of ecclesiality or remnants of the reality of the Church within them corresponding to their closeness to and origin from the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is alone the one true Church and any grace operative among the heterodox is the true Church working in them, and any heterodox that may be saved are saved through the grace of and into the true Church. This is the context for the quote used in this video, but the quote in context is actually much larger and much clearer than the video provides:
“In the present situation of ecclesial incompleteness within the various Christian denominations, the question is raised: Are their members saved? Or, in other words, is there salvation outside the Church, which is nothing other than one, in the full sense of the word?
This question cannot be given a simplistic answer.
Within the different Christian confessions, there are many believers whose Christian life has not been reduced to their particular denomination's official doctrinal formulas. The ancient Christian tradition was stronger than the doctrinal innovations brought about by the founders of these denominations and sustained officially until now by those formations and their theologians. In Catholicism, for example, the mysteries are even today practiced along with the conviction of the faithful that through these mysteries they are intimately and directly united with Christ, and that Christ is therefore working within the Church. These convictions persist even though Catholic theological theory has given Christ a locum tenens and conceives of the salvation brought by Christ as accomplished through the simple satisfaction that He gave to God on Golgotha; or this theory declares that the grace received in the mysteries is a created grace, not an operation springing out of the uncreated divinity of Christ and not the extension of this uncreated divinity into the being of the faithful.
However, a second factor needs to be taken into consideration: the believers of various Christian denominations found themselves inadvertently within those denominations that have faith in a Christ who is not present in them with His entire saving efficacy. Their incomplete participation in Christ-and this is, to a great extent, not their fault may consequently result in an incomplete participation in Him in the life to come as well, in conformity with the word of the Savior: ‘In My Father's house are many mansions’ (John 14:2). (Dogmatics Vol. IV, pgs 67-68.)”
Fr. Staniloae in his answer to the question takes the presence of real sacraments among the heterodox to be linked to the possibility of grace positively working amongst the heterodox even, by God’s mercy, unto salvation. He argues that the errors of these groups does not deprive them of the sacraments and that, while the separation is real and there is real lack and pollution amongst the heterodox, the individual faithful may receive beneficial grace. And when Fr. Staniloae says that the heterodox may share incompletely in Christ in the afterlife he links it not only to this sacramental grace they had operative among their communities, but also links it to the Scriptural statement that in God’s house, meaning heaven and salvation, are many mansions.
So yes, when Craig asks if this sounds like Fr. Staniloae is talking about salvation, in context it most definitely does. The question then is whether this contradicts extra ecclesium nulla salus, and the answer is “no,” because the grace is properly of the one Church working amongst the heterodox and any salvation is into the Church.
my name is......
@Lourdes Delavega Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
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CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
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Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
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Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
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Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
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Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
my name is......
@Lourdes Delavega By Grace through Faith
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 (A)For by grace you have been saved (B)through faith, and that not of yourselves; (C)it is the gift of God, 9 not of (D)works, lest anyone should (E)boast
Roman 4:4-5= Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [a]as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,(Me= the works of Abharam is not the same as the law of works, why? Because the law came in the time of Moses and Moses was born about 300-400 years after Abharam died.)
Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when (A)the kindness and the love of (B)God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 (C)not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through (D)the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 (E)whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace (F)we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, (A)not according to our works, but (B)according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus (C)before time began,
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 (A)Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who (B)according to His abundant mercy (C)has begotten us again to a living hope (D)through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [a]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, (E)reserved in heaven for you, 5 (F)who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ephesians 2:5 (A)even when we were dead in trespasses, (B)made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Romans 5:1
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
5 Therefore, (A)having been justified by faith, [a]we have (B)peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
______________________
2 Timothy 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known (A)the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:8-9
8 And (A)the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, (B)“In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 2:16
16 (A)knowing that a man is not [a]justified by the works of the law but (B)by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not (C)by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:22-24
22 But the Scripture has confined (A)all under sin, (B)that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [a]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore (C)the law was our [b]tutor to bring us to Christ, (D)that we might be justified by faith.
Theophan
@Orthodox Christian Theology From St Nektarios of Ægina :
'The 'Congregatio' Sanctorum does not exist and cannot exist. It does not exist for One is the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, indivisible and visible, constituted by all those who are regenerated in her. Something at the same time visible and invisible does not exist.
Those who have not been regenerated by the divine grace which works itself inside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, do not form any Church, neither visible nor invisible.
The Church that calls itself 'Protestant' is only an abstract notion. It is deprived of any divine foundation, any divine and historical authority. It relies entirely on human thoughts and human actions, without any stable and inalienable character. If Protestants consider the visible Church they are a part of to be the 'Congregatio Sanctorum', of what use then is the invisible Church? Once again, we wonder how those who constitute this visible Church are even called saints, since according to their own principles, man has been completely corrupted after the [original] sin?
Who has confirmed to themselves their rebirth, their sanctity, their reconciliation and communion with God? Who has given them proof that the grace of Christ was working in them? Who has testified to the effusion of the Holy Spirit in them, to the abundance of the divine gifts, of the divine charisms?
Everything is given with certitude and authority in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church only. Who has been regenerated in her receives the perfect assurance of his communion with God.'
(from his treatise 'On the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church')
my name is......
But there are miracles in pagan religion
1) Yea but they don't preach Jesus Christ we do
2) they don't preach Gospel, we do
3) they don't teach Christian morality, we do
4) they don't teach repentance, we do
5) they don't obey the Gospel, we do
6) they don't spread the Gospel, we do
7) they don't believe in TRINITY, we do
8) they are not worshiping true God, nor pray to true God, nor pray in the name of Jesus, nor they believe in JESUS, but we do
9) they don't in literal Heaven and Hell described in Holy Bible, but we do
10) they are not waiting for the literal Second coming of LORD Jesus Christ, we do
11) they don't believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, we do
13) they don't believe that our sins are forgiven by the Blood of Jesus, we do.
12) they don't believe in the resurrection of Christians like described in the book of Revelation, we do
12) lastly they neither Believe in The Holy Bible, nor they nor preach The Holy Bible.
MyNameIs Jeff
DISCLAIMER These are just my views on the subject.
It is of course Orthodox and necessary to affirm that there is no salvation outside the Church. Perhaps there are some persons online who deny this, but I do not know any of note. Even a “hyper-ecumenist” like Fr. Sergius Bulgakov would be able to affirm this statement and did not give ground on this point in ecumenical meetings. That all Orthodox can and must affirm this is because, as Fr. Georges Florovsky (a modern Church father and, if we are giving this title to the uncanonized, no doubt a Saint) has said, “All the categorical strength of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church.” If anyone is saved in any sense it is salvation into the Church as the Church is itself the Body of Christ and union with God. The example of Trajan then, while an exception to the normative way of salvation, does not break the rule of extra ecclesium nulla sallus, it is contained within the scope of possibilities for salvation into the Church. And this is why I think many of those quotes claimed to being quote mined (and I know which article Craig directs this towards) are not quote mines at all. The salvation of Jews and Gentiles in the Harrowing of Hades is an example of salvation which while into the Church is not bound by the sacraments and canonical limits because Christ is not bound by these things. If “salvation outside the Church” simply means God can save through extraordinary means outside the Church’s canonical and sacramental limits in this life then it isn’t wrong, though I agree it is much better to show that this in fact does not contradict the teaching of no salvation outside the Church.
But I think this leads to a bigger issue, which is that in this video the teaching of “no salvation outside the Church” is being taken to mean that (1) there are no valid sacraments outside the canonical limits of the Orthodox Church and (2) that we cannot or should not speak in any positive way of grace operating for the good of those outside these canonical limits. If this is a misunderstanding of the arguments or aims of this video I apologize, but in that case this will simply serve to give more depth to the discussion.
That there are valid sacraments (valid simply meaning real) among not only schismatics but also heretics is the official teaching of the First Session of the Acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Council of Nicaea II. While I cannot copy-paste the whole session here I will quote the words of Patriarch St. Tarasius, the president of the Council, and then give a rundown of the main points from the council which establish this teaching without a doubt. I also note that Bl. Fr. Daniel Sysoev takes the same reading that I do, affirms heterodox sacraments of baptism and ordination, and rejects the rigorist theories propounded since the 18th century. Patriarch St. Tarasius says and I quote:
“What say ye to Anatolius? Was he not president of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, and this although he was ordained by the impious Dioscorus in the presence of Eutyches himself? May we not, then, admit those who have been ordained by heretics, since Anatolius was thus admitted? And again, it is the undoubted voice of God, ‘that the children shall not die for the fathers, but each one shall die for his own sin.’ And, moreover, consecration is from God. But if, by chance, any should doubt concerning Anatolius, let something further be read concerning him… And, moreover, the greater part of those who sat in the Sixth Ecumenical Council were ordained by Sergius, Pyrrhus, Peter, and Paul, prime movers of the heresy of the Monothelites, because that they, in succession, obtained the chair of Constantinople; and from Peter, the last of these, to the time of the Sixth Council, was a space of fifteen years, during which period John, Thomas, and Constantine, who were also high priests in succession, received their orders from the heretics aforesaid, but no objection was ever raised against them on that account: now this heresy continued for upwards of fifty years. Nevertheless, the fathers of the Sixth Council scrupled not to condemn all the four above-named heretical Patriarchs, though they had been ordained by them.”
Now to give context to these comments, it must be known that the 7th Ecumenical Council treated the Iconoclasts not simply as schismatics but as heretics needing to be received back into the Church from which they were separated just like heretics of old. The Council considered Iconoclasts anathematized and separated prior to its own convening, and it seems to be referring to the authority of the Western council of Lateran 769 on this point. When Patriarch Tarasius and the whole Council with him thus decides to receive Iconoclasts in their orders they are acknowledging the reality of their ordinations in heresy, and there arguments from history make this clear.
In this first session the Arian and Monothelite controversies are taken as the normative historical examples for understanding this issue. In both cases the Arians and Monothelites are viewed as not merely schismatics but as heretics and so their reception is seen as an issue which must be looked into. And contra online meme arguments that this would only apply to these groups while communion wasn’t severed or they weren’t anathematized, the arguments in the first session explicitly refer to the reception of Arians after the anathematization against them by Nicaea and after the acceptance of the false council of Ariminum, so yes the Arians were separated from the Church at this time. Likewise the Monothelites are viewed as separated and in the above quote St. Tarasius purposely clarifies the issue by stating that the Church accepted as valid (real) the ordinations of second generation Monothelites, so it cannot be coped that only the first generation of bishops or priests who separated from the Church retain their ordination received while in the Church, after separation these heretics can continue to give ordination and so can those they ordain. Now if one would disagree with Nicaea II teaching that the Monothelites were separated from the Church as heretics, I would ask on what basis? The Patriarchs of the East all fell into heresy and Rome in council of Lateran 649 anathematized them, and in his interrogation, St. Maximus even says that the Monothelites have been stripped by this council and cannot ordain or have the Spirit (which I take as charitably meaning their sacraments are polluted or lacking efficacy, as the first session of Nicaea II interprets the similar language of Sts. Athanasius and Basil the Great)! An Ecumenical Council is not required to separate a jurisdiction from the Church (e.g., the schismatics in Ukraine, or even Rome itself whose separation is the result of a long process), so that Lateran 649 was not eventually accepted as Ecumenical is not a valid argument against this fact.
So the First Session of the 7th Ecumenical Council (and the Acts of Ecumenical Councils are authoritative according to the Synodikon of Orthodoxy) teaches clearly that heterodox have valid/real sacraments including ordination. When Saints speak of heterodox having the form but not the grace this DOES NOT mean, as economia theorists believe, that what heterodox perform is only the outward action. What is performed among them is baptism and is ordination, the efficacy for salvation of these sacraments is simply polluted to the point where in harsh language some fathers speak of them as not baptism or ordination (and again, my reading on this issue is that of the 7th Council which reads the language of Sts. Basil and Athanasius in this way). If one disagrees then they are free to disagree which the Ecumenically received council of Carthage 419, the 7th Ecumenical Council and its interpretation of previous Ecumenical Councils and the practice of reception, and all the post-schism pan-orthodox synods except the innovatory 1756 synod which Constantinople does not even consider authoritative as was shown at the council of Crete 2016.
MyNameIs Jeff
Now as for the problem of speaking positively about the grace (specifically sacramental grace) among the heterodox, while the vast majority of fathers teach the non-efficacious nature of heterodox sacraments this is a very tricky thing to clearly define. And taking history into account, which must always be done as our faith is supremely historical, shows this is a legitimate issue. If we take not only the Arian controversy, but also the Monothelite and Iconoclast controversies as being matters of heresy and real separation from the Church, then we have centuries worth of the vast majority of Orthodox who would receive no benefit from the sacraments. But then, how can we have, for example, innumerable Saints of the Georgian Church during the period from Chalcedon 451 to the year 607 who did not accept Chalcedon and were in communion with Monophysites? If any is in doubt, reading the Saints daily from this calendar (https://holytrinityorthodox.com/htc/orthodox-calendar/) will show you just how many Georgians we venerate from this period, including someone like King Vakhtang Gorgasali who was a Monophysite who accepted the Henotikon of Zeno and established the Georgian Catholicos (also Ethiopian Saints could be mentioned).
This makes plain the issue: Church history shows us that the “wild field” does not begin immediately across the canonical borders of the Church, there is an enigmatic in-between state as Fr. Georges Florovsky said (and affirmed throughout his life). And why is this? It is because schism begins from within the Church. This is the presupposition of St. Augustine on which he argues throughout his “On Baptism Against the Donatists”: the Church in the truest sense is made up of those who keep the true faith in the bond of peace, those in the canonical limits then who are stubborn in heresy or create “internal schism” are already separated from the Church and receiving the sacraments to their detriment. Full separation of a body is the completion of this schism, but St. Augustine argues that if we do not deny the reality of the sacraments to those internally schismatic or heretical clergy still formally within the Church then we also cannot do so for those who eventually are separated. The belief that heresy and schism even taken to full separation means that bodies which retain in form the priesthood actually lose the priesthood and all sacraments, that is the heresy of Donatism. The meme argument that Donatism only applies to denying the sacraments of heretical bishops still in the Church, but that once separated they lose all sacraments, is just that, a meme.
Now St. Augustine’s ecclesiology was somewhat linked to his idea of predestination according to which all who would be saved would eventually in this life join the Church. But this is not a universally binding view nor does it square with the salvation of Trajan or canonization of Georgians and Ethiopians post-Chalcedon. But his teaching that the sacraments are the Church working in the heterodox and his teaching that those with the right faith who, for lack of any Orthodox Church available to them, partake of heterodox baptism receive it to their benefit and regeneration, are theological pointers towards the acceptable Orthodox position which has been taken by Frs. Florovsky and Dumitru Staniloae, Theophan the Recluse, Sts. Philaret Drozdov of Moscow and Sophrony of Essex, etc. Any benefit a heterodox person may receive from the sacraments administered in his “church” is beneficial insofar as it orients and moves them towards the One True Church of Orthodoxy, and the benefit they may receive is paired with their conformity to the faith and spirituality of the true Church so far as they are able.
This view does not undermine the truth of Orthodoxy as the One True Church. It is in the Orthodox Church that the unity of Sacraments is united in unity of faith, fully efficacious and guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth. Here everything is sure and in fullness, and the heterodox can only have something from the Church by the Church itself working in them, none of the sacraments of the heterodox are theirs or derive from them. God wishes for all to be united to this one true Church His pure and spotless bride, and all schisms are separations from this unity and degenerations which God does not will and while Christ retains a certain ecclesiality within them (for the promises of God are irrevocable) it is in the hope that they return and are re-grafted into the one united Body of Christ. All of this can be said and more while affirming the non-rigorist sacramental position and even admitting a degree of sacramental benefit among the heterodox. If anyone thinks it cant, or that this is heresy, or that this is branch theory or any other nonsense, I encourage them to go and read the collected articles in the book The Patristic Witness of Georges Florovsky: Essential Theological Writings under the headline titled Part 3: Ecclesiology and Ecumenism, as well as his article titled “The Doctrine of the Church and the Ecumenical Problem.” The general unfamiliarity among most Orthodox online with the work of Fr. Georges Florovsky, the greatest and most authoritative Orthodox theologian of the 20th century, is very unfortunate, as is the ridiculous misinformation spread about him by Greek Old Calendarists and others who claim he changed his ecumenical or ecclesiological views.
I would also point out that this non-rigorist ecclesiology and admittance of benefits of grace amongst heterodox corresponding to nearness to Orthodoxy is just the clear and plane reading of those passages Craig handwaves as “pastoral.” No, the context that Fr. Rose is admonishing Orthodox not to be shown up by pious heterodox does not explain away his clear statement that the heterodox can have grace and be saved. And there is no dilemma here either because any salvation they receive and any grace working in them is properly the grace and salvation of the one Church, not a separate heterodox salvation or grace. The same goes for the other statements, and many more were left out such as the clear teaching of St. Philaret Drozdov (an authoritative father for Russia) or even going back to St. Gennadius Scholarius who viewed Roman Catholics and Monophysites as people working out their salvation and capable of receiving blessings and antidoron to help them in this.
Lastly, I must comment on the importance of Orthodox theological reflection precisely on this positive relation to the Church or reality of the Church remaining among certain heterodox groups. While a more hardline approach is indeed warranted in apologetics it cannot be the only approach when it comes to theological reflection on and relations to heterodox confessional bodies. Why? Because the Church has always seen it as a legitimate and even necessary endeavour to try and reunite (or biblically to re-graft) whole heterodox confessions in their hierarchical and historical integrity with itself. And what is this based on? It is based on the actual continuation, polluted as it is, of ecclesiality and most importantly continuance of succession of ordination among them. While historically we can look to Georgia or any other example of schism being resolved by reincorporation, the Roman Church is the pressing example for the future. By Scripture, by Tradition and the prerogatives of the Councils, if Rome is ever received back into communion, it can only be as the legitimate Patriarchate of Rome. The Orthodox Church can not set up its own bishop of Rome and act as if they have all the authority and prerogatives of Rome pre-schism, it is a complete impossibility. And that Rome, as the archbishop of the Church’s with its unique connection to St. Peter as high priest, bears an irrevocable status that even in schism cannot be replaced, is a witness to the truth that ecclesiality remains among them and true ecumenism seeking reunion in true and uncompromising faith is a necessity, not optional.
The inability of some people online to understand nuanced theological discussion cannot hinder legitimate theologizing, and the rigorist view with its historical nonsensicalities and faulty theological methodology should not, in my opinion, be promoted because some people are scandalized by the normative position the majority of Orthodox and their hierarchs hold to. It is much more dangerous to propagate an idea which fosters distrust of clergy and bishops and views of the Church as saturated by “pan-heresy.”
Again, these are just my own opinions on the subject. God bless!
my name is......
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
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CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
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Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
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Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
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Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
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Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
Orthodox Christian Theology
The powerpoint to the presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1BaMNx81bH97QO7aZHxqQmAO_1ZJn5AUFDiLrKd5KiOk/edit?usp=sharing
Savvas Bournelis
thank you!
Orthodox Christian Theology
Staniloae: I'm not really for ecumenism; a serbian, Justin Popovic, was right, who called it the pan-heresy of our time. I consider it the product of Freemasonry; and it relativizes the true faith: why should I stay with them who made women priests, who no longer marry, and in America, England and other countries have legislated homosexuality".— Fragment of a conversation the Father had with some young people from the Orthodox Youth League in Brasov, which he had only a few months before his death. I translated from Romanian myself. [http://www.cuvantulortodox.ro/files/Cuvinte_duhovnicesti_predici_si_conferinte/Parintele_Dumitru_Staniloae/Parintele_Staniloae_despre_ecumenism.mp3]
And here again he says: "The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are not two sisters. There is only one head of the Church, Jesus Christ. There can only be one body, that is, one Church. So the notion of sister churches is inappropriate". — Extract from an interview taken in “Orthodoxy and religious internationalism”, ed. Scale, 1999.
Many prominent theologians had problems during their youth, among them Father George Florovsky or St. Nicolae Velimirovici, as well as Father Dumitru Staniloae, are no exception. Here are many other extracts, you can use google translate or I want to translate myself. [http://www.cuvantul-ortodox.ro/parintele-staniloae-ecumenismus-este-produsul-masoneriei-si-este-pan-erezie-nu-exista-%E2%80%9Cbiserici-sorori%E2%80% 9D-si-audio/]
Black Ortho Acolyte
Excellent and vital stream here God bless you. My background has made the vague hyper nuance wishy washy answers to this question beyond frustrating. My denomination of upbringing taught no salvation outside "The faith" and evangelized like their own and everyone else's spiritual fate depended on it. It also affirms my concern with this almost "proud we don't evangelize" attitude I see too often. The meme mocking the Mormons for seeking converts vs someone having to go out to the forest and beg a Monk for information is not a flex it's a disaster. Prime example of this I recently said at coffee hour "we need Parishes in the ghettos in America to reach out to those communities" and I had someone say "Don't they already have other Churches there?".
Orthodox Christian Theology
Such a sad response to your point
Cyril
To be clear, I am 100% in agreement with BOA. Of course, I don't support going as "far" as Mormonism, but I don't think we do this. The internet space does a great job explicating this issue: Jay on the nefarious (the ecumenism-word) forces involved in limiting evangelism, Ubi Petrus on the history of Orthodox evangelism and its distinctives vis a vis heterodox traditions.
Black Ortho Acolyte
@Cyril Nah I don’t think laity chasing people down in the streets for theological debates/discussion is a good thing. I mean simple activity in the community to invite all. People act like a tract on a vehicle/door with a invitation to Vespers or Divine Liturgy is some shameful thing yet are not ashamed of people living 10- 20 miles from a Orthodox Church for 20 years and never once hearing about Orthodoxy yet alone being invited. IMO a calendar year shouldn’t pass where most people in a community isn’t reminded that there’s a local Orthodox Parish nearby that wants you to come and see. That’s all.
White Makes Right
I agree 100%. I grew up in a metro area with over a dozen Orthodox parishes, 4 within a 30 minute radius from my house, and I had never even heard of Orthodoxy (outside of passing mentions in history textbooks) until I came across "Orthobros" online, at the age of 25. It's a scandal, really.
retro-orthodox
“I’m not going to bother quoting ____.”
Proceeds to quote it.
😂
Orthodox Christian Theology
You caught that lol