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String Quartet in E Major Hob.III:8 : 4. Menuetto
Franz Joseph Haydn Lyrics


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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

Elaine Blackhurst

@Ultra Legendary Master
Haydn did not enter these quartets into his own Entwurf-Katalog which he began in c.1765, though they were mistakenly entered into another much later list by his secretary and can thus be counted a clerical error.

This clerical error appears in the Haydn-Verzeichnis - in effect the second contemporary catalogue of works by the composer - compiled by Haydn’s trusted copyist Johann Elssler in 1805.
Elssler quite reasonably accepted Opus 3 as genuine Haydn as they had been widely circulated across Europe by Pleyel in his ‘complete edition’ of Haydn quartets of 1801.

Haydn knew Pleyel well, he had been a pupil aged 15 to 20 in the 1770’s and lodged with Haydn; they met again in London in 1791/92.
Haydn cooperated with Pleyel over this ‘complete edition’ of 83 quartets that Pleyel was about to publish - which included Opus 3, hence nearly 200 years of confusion.

The HV by Elssler was overseen by Haydn, but he was mentally very fragile and forgetful by this time; additionally, if he did know these spurious works had been added to his account, some of his previous devious and unscrupulous activities in this area would suggest that he would not want them removed if it would be likely to increase his income.
(Forget all the genial ‘Papa’ nonsense so widely perpetrated across YouTube; in an age with no copywrite or protections, Haydn was a pragmatically ruthless and efficient, sometimes scheming, devious, and downright dishonest businessman*).

HC Robbins Landon and Alan Tyson in 1964 discovered that the name of Pater Romanus Hofstetter (a Benedictine monk who admired Haydn’s music), had been only partially erased by the Paris publisher Bailleux from his engraving of the works in 1777.
Haydn’s name had been superimposed on top, and when HCRL investigated the originals, he found clear traces of Hofstetter’s name underneath on two of the quartets.

I am certain beyond any doubt that Haydn did not write Opus 3, it is likely Hofstetter may have written only two of them (Nos 1 and 2) and therefore not including the famous No 5; it is also very possible that Bailleux created a composite set of quartets by more than one composer.

Studies by musicologists suggest that stylistically they cannot be by Haydn,** nor do they fit with other biographical details of his career; similarly, nor are they all consistent with other works by Hofstetter.

At the very best, I would say that parts of Opus 3 can be labelled ‘attributed to Hofstetter’, and quite probably not Opus 3 No 5 which is probably impossible to attribute correctly today.

This shocking deception by Bailleux - to us today - and the origin of all the ???s was common practice in Paris at the time; there was actually more fake Haydn published in Paris during these years than real Haydn as publishers found that it sold better.

* Haydn’s questionable and less than straightforward dealings with publishers and patrons was one of the things Beethoven did unequivocally admire about Haydn; he frequently sold ‘exclusive’ rights to works to different recipients.
Haydn embarrassingly got involved in a legal battle in London between two publishers over a set of three ‘Haydn’ piano trios he had sold them, two of which - having attempted to palm them off as his own - were actually discovered to be by Pleyel.

** The famous sugary, sweet Serenade movement from Opus 3 No 5 is the most un-Haydnesque music imaginable.



Elaine Blackhurst

@Timothy Thorne
Well done, it’s good that you’ve been able to work it out for yourself.

Whilst this quartet is competently composed, I think the key to understanding and explaining the long-standing mis-attribution is the fact that it is composed in the style of Haydn, and the copy is quite good.

Another work that I think is similarly problematic is Haydn’s marionette opera Die Feuerstbrunst (1775 - 1778 ?) which for reasons similar to those you have correctly identified with the quartet, I suspect is at best only part-Haydn.

I believe this work was partly composed by Haydn’s pupil Ignaz Pleyel who was studying - and lodging - with Haydn between the ages of 15 and 20 (1772 - 1777) ie at the time of the composition of Die Feuerstbrunst, the overture being identical to a three movement symphony by Pleyel; I have problems with much of the rest as well, especially as it is one of the very few Haydn vocal works I would not recommend to the curious.

All good fun, and we’re as entitled as the experts by just listening with our ears, or studying a score to question some long-held possible mis-attributions.



All comments from YouTube:

Aya Sagiv

I'm playing this and it's amazing 😉 I'm playing the viola

Elliott Blanchard Composing

Its great that the best movement starts at 4:20

Ultra Legendary Master

@Elaine Blackhurst Did you learn western classical music history in university or on your own? It would be much appreciated if you shared some of your resources for learning the history behind the music. It’s very easy to find the theoretical information complied together, but not so much for the historical context. I’ve been quite fascinated by the historical background of composers like Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and others for a while now. The only problem is I’m not sure how to approach it properly. Your help has been greatly appreciated and I would also love if you steered me in the proper direction. Thank you for your help.

Elaine Blackhurst

@Ultra Legendary Master
Haydn did not enter these quartets into his own Entwurf-Katalog which he began in c.1765, though they were mistakenly entered into another much later list by his secretary and can thus be counted a clerical error.

This clerical error appears in the Haydn-Verzeichnis - in effect the second contemporary catalogue of works by the composer - compiled by Haydn’s trusted copyist Johann Elssler in 1805.
Elssler quite reasonably accepted Opus 3 as genuine Haydn as they had been widely circulated across Europe by Pleyel in his ‘complete edition’ of Haydn quartets of 1801.

Haydn knew Pleyel well, he had been a pupil aged 15 to 20 in the 1770’s and lodged with Haydn; they met again in London in 1791/92.
Haydn cooperated with Pleyel over this ‘complete edition’ of 83 quartets that Pleyel was about to publish - which included Opus 3, hence nearly 200 years of confusion.

The HV by Elssler was overseen by Haydn, but he was mentally very fragile and forgetful by this time; additionally, if he did know these spurious works had been added to his account, some of his previous devious and unscrupulous activities in this area would suggest that he would not want them removed if it would be likely to increase his income.
(Forget all the genial ‘Papa’ nonsense so widely perpetrated across YouTube; in an age with no copywrite or protections, Haydn was a pragmatically ruthless and efficient, sometimes scheming, devious, and downright dishonest businessman*).

HC Robbins Landon and Alan Tyson in 1964 discovered that the name of Pater Romanus Hofstetter (a Benedictine monk who admired Haydn’s music), had been only partially erased by the Paris publisher Bailleux from his engraving of the works in 1777.
Haydn’s name had been superimposed on top, and when HCRL investigated the originals, he found clear traces of Hofstetter’s name underneath on two of the quartets.

I am certain beyond any doubt that Haydn did not write Opus 3, it is likely Hofstetter may have written only two of them (Nos 1 and 2) and therefore not including the famous No 5; it is also very possible that Bailleux created a composite set of quartets by more than one composer.

Studies by musicologists suggest that stylistically they cannot be by Haydn,** nor do they fit with other biographical details of his career; similarly, nor are they all consistent with other works by Hofstetter.

At the very best, I would say that parts of Opus 3 can be labelled ‘attributed to Hofstetter’, and quite probably not Opus 3 No 5 which is probably impossible to attribute correctly today.

This shocking deception by Bailleux - to us today - and the origin of all the ???s was common practice in Paris at the time; there was actually more fake Haydn published in Paris during these years than real Haydn as publishers found that it sold better.

* Haydn’s questionable and less than straightforward dealings with publishers and patrons was one of the things Beethoven did unequivocally admire about Haydn; he frequently sold ‘exclusive’ rights to works to different recipients.
Haydn embarrassingly got involved in a legal battle in London between two publishers over a set of three ‘Haydn’ piano trios he had sold them, two of which - having attempted to palm them off as his own - were actually discovered to be by Pleyel.

** The famous sugary, sweet Serenade movement from Opus 3 No 5 is the most un-Haydnesque music imaginable.

Ultra Legendary Master

@Elaine Blackhurst I mean it makes sense why Haydn put it his catalog of works to help the others sales but the question is who actually wrote it.

Elaine Blackhurst

@Timothy Thorne
The six string quartets of Opus 3 are not by Haydn.

The famous sugary-sweet serenade movement is one of the most un-Haydnesque melodies imaginable; it is astonishing that this mis-attribution is still given so much credence.

Timothy Thorne

That second movement is one of the two most famous tunes that Haydn wrote, along with the slow movement of his "Emperor" quartet.

1 More Replies...

Derex

I heard this as a freshman during our chamber unit, and now I'm playing it as a senior during our chamber unit this year

Tobi Oh

Cool!

Key After Key

Lol I’m playing it this year

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