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String Quartet in F Minor Hob. III:35 : 1. Moderato
Franz Joseph Haydn Lyrics


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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

Elaine Blackhurst

Orlando Aponte
Some interesting points; the only thing I might question is your saying that other composers working out of the fugal theme is ‘amateur by comparison’ [to Bach].

Nothing by Haydn is amateur, what we have is the theme worked extremely fluently into a Classical string quartet, similarly Mozart very skillfully worked the same theme into the Kyrie of his Classical Requiem.

Bach’s working out of course is into a Baroque keyboard fugue and as you point out, is something entirely different.

Bach’s only theoretical book in his library was Fux’s ‘Gradus ad Parnassum’; Haydn’s copy of Fux was so heavily annotated with worked examples, it is thought that he may have intended re-publishing it.
Haydn’s copy was almost certainly borrowed by Mozart, and was used for the lessons with Beethoven.

When Haydn went back to England for his second visit in 1794, Albrechtsberger carried on the counterpoint lessons with Beethoven using, you’ve guessed it...Fux.

The point is that there was a common Fux-ian thread, but it is entirely reasonable to expect later composers to do things differently and not simply replicate Bach/Baroque practice, most of which in any case was considered old-fashioned anyway even by the 1750’s.

It’s not so much a case of better or worse, ‘amateur’ or anything else; it’s just different. Mozart wrote a few pieces in a deliberately Handel and/or Bach style - they are interesting, but no more.



Elaine Blackhurst

HarmonicParadox
It really is very difficult to try to identify any one of the six quartets of Opus 20 as ‘the best’; the set as a whole is one of the most important breakthroughs in the whole history of western classical music and all six are saying new and important things.

If any particular one is a favourite, that is a personal choice; trying to identify ‘the best’ is a pointless exercise on which virtually nobody would agree - all six are outstanding, and it would be like trying to compare red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet.

Re: fugal themes; Mozart and Haydn used a number of popular little tags as you have correctly identified which were common property of composers throughout the 18th century, they were used by Baroque composers too.

Additionally, almost all composers followed the theory outlined in Fux’s Gradus ad Parnassum (1725); it was the only theory book in JS Bach’s library.
Haydn’s heavily annotated copy may well have been seen by Mozart and was used as the basis of Haydn’s counterpoint lessons given to Beethoven, as indeed was Fux used by his later teachers such as Albrechtsberger - reminiscences of one composer in another are therefore inevitable.

A similar thing occurs when Haydn uses a very recognisable old four note theme in the fugues which form the last movement of his Symphonies 3 and 13; Mozart then also uses the same or slightly varied tag most famously in his Symphony 41 finale, and both composers used it elsewhere too.

For Mozart to be ‘...inspired by’, is rather overstating - in fact, grossly exaggerating to an absurd degree - what was in fact a pretty common practice of re-using second hand ideas that had enormous possibilities; in short, don’t read too much into it.



All comments from YouTube:

Hands Up Promotions

I actually had the privilege to hold the original hand written score in my hands. Truly an amazing experience...

K A Nesiah

You can hear the roots of Mozart's Kyrie Eleison double fugue from the Requiem in the double fugue finale of this string quartet. Of course, Mozart developed the fugue in a totally different direction but the subject and counter subject are almost identical.

the eternal student

@Orlando Aponte Listening to how different composers treat the same material in a different way is a great strategy for trying to understand their style and skill level.

Concerned One

K426 for strings is almost carbon copy.

Elaine Blackhurst

@Orlando Aponte
I think we are both saying the same thing; my point was - to put it very simply - that you cannot expect Haydn to go out and about wearing the clothes of Bach, similarly, Beethoven would not go out wearing the same outfits as Mozart and Haydn - fashions and styles change over time.

Orlando Aponte

@Elaine Blackhurst I may have been exaggerating a bit when I used the word "amateur," but I still think it's safe to say that no composer mastered contrapuntal (especially fugal) writing to the same extent that Bach did. I am a big fan of Haydn and Mozart, so I didn't intend any sort of disrespect towards them as composers. Also, from a fugal perspective, Mozart's Fugue in C minor from his Adagio & Fugue is one of my favorite fugues of all time. I would still say that the contrapuntal fluency in that piece pales in comparison to Bach's "signature" works, but it makes up for its deficits with several redeeming qualities.

Even when you remove "skill" from the picture (let's assume for the sake of argument that Haydn, Mozart, and Bach are equals in the counterpoint department), since Bach devoted his entire life to that style of writing, he naturally had more time to discover and employ more creative/ingenious contrapuntal elaborations than the others.

Elaine Blackhurst

Orlando Aponte
Some interesting points; the only thing I might question is your saying that other composers working out of the fugal theme is ‘amateur by comparison’ [to Bach].

Nothing by Haydn is amateur, what we have is the theme worked extremely fluently into a Classical string quartet, similarly Mozart very skillfully worked the same theme into the Kyrie of his Classical Requiem.

Bach’s working out of course is into a Baroque keyboard fugue and as you point out, is something entirely different.

Bach’s only theoretical book in his library was Fux’s ‘Gradus ad Parnassum’; Haydn’s copy of Fux was so heavily annotated with worked examples, it is thought that he may have intended re-publishing it.
Haydn’s copy was almost certainly borrowed by Mozart, and was used for the lessons with Beethoven.

When Haydn went back to England for his second visit in 1794, Albrechtsberger carried on the counterpoint lessons with Beethoven using, you’ve guessed it...Fux.

The point is that there was a common Fux-ian thread, but it is entirely reasonable to expect later composers to do things differently and not simply replicate Bach/Baroque practice, most of which in any case was considered old-fashioned anyway even by the 1750’s.

It’s not so much a case of better or worse, ‘amateur’ or anything else; it’s just different. Mozart wrote a few pieces in a deliberately Handel and/or Bach style - they are interesting, but no more.

4 More Replies...

Leon Story

These (Mosaiques Quartet on original instruments) are surely some of the very best recordings of the Haydn Op.20. Wonderful! Try also the London Haydn Quartet recordings on Hyperion (avaliable on CD for download purchase as MP3 or FLAC), which I think is even a hair better.

Zachery Louis

I disagree. I believe the time traveler I have sitting beside me has a better recording; everyone elses' is inferior.

HarmonicParadox

Probably the best of his Sun Quartets. Mozart was definitely inspired by Haydn's fugue in the Kyrie of his Requiem. Though they both may have gotten it from Handel's Messiah "And with his stripes we are healed"

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