United Kingdom
The Freestylers formed in 1996 when DJs and dance music p… Read Full Bio ↴United Kingdom
The Freestylers formed in 1996 when DJs and dance music producers Matt Cantor, Aston Harvey and (initially) Andrew Galea joined forces. All three of them had been involved in the British dance music scene since the 1980s. Cantor had recorded as Cut n' Paste and Strike with Andy Gardner (Plump DJs). Aston Harvey recorded as Blapps! Posse best known for the 1990 breakbeat dance hit "Don't Hold Back" before working with Definition of Sound, Rebel MC and DJ Rap (as DJ Rap and Aston). Harvey joined with Galea under the name Sol Brothers before Cantor was recruited to form the Freestylers. The group took their name from their first sample "Don't Stop The Rock" by Freestyle.

The trio's first single "Drop The Boom (AK-48)" on their own Scratch City Records in 1996 becoming a dancefloor hit in the UK and Miami. The band released the Freestyle EP in 1996 on Freskanova (Freskanova's parent label, Fresh, had released Cantor, Galea and Harvey's previous work). Andrew Galea left the Freestylers shortly after the release of the Freestyle EP.

After the departure of Andrew Galea, Matt and Aston formed an 11-piece band (initially an idea of their record label, Freskanova). This consisted of the 2 producers (Cantor and Harvey), a scratch DJ (Mad Doctor X), a guitarist (Tony Ayiotou), drummer (Clive Jenner), bass guitarist (Joe Henson), 2 MCs (MC Navigator and Tenor Fly) and 3 breakdancers (Coza, Marat, Tim).

The band's first album We Rock Hard was released in 1998. The single "B-Boy Stance" became a singles hit in the UK in 1998 featuring the contributions of rapper Tenor Fly. In 1999, the Freestylers enjoyed success in the U.S. with track "Don't Stop" reached the top 10 of the Billboard dance charts and "Here We Go" becoming a MTV Buzzworthy clip. We Rock Hard sold well in the US selling over 150,000 and reaching the top 30 of the Billboard Heatseeker chart.

Following the success of B-Boy Stance, the band were asked to remix tracks by Audioweb, Afrika Bambaataa and the Jungle Brothers as well as a big beat compilation album FSUK 2 and a Radio 1 Essential Mix featuring Beenie Man, Public Enemy, Whodini and The Fall.

The Freestylers released a mix album Electro Science in 2000. Their second album Pressure Point was released in 2001 with the track Get Down Massive featuring Navigator reaching top 20 on the Billboard dance charts in 2002.

During 2002 and 2003 the group began releasing singles under the artist name Raw As F**k which then became the title of their third album. Released in 2004, it featured the single "Push Up", which reached the top 30 in the UK and top 3 in Australia. Another single, which was previously released before "Push Up", called "Get A Life", was re-released and reached the top 20 in Australia.

Take Me Away / Steam
Freestylers Lyrics

We have lyrics for these tracks by Freestylers:

B-Boy Stance All up for one more time, I wanna.. anyway Now listen…
Cracks Leave the past behind Just walk away When it's over And my h…
Cracks (Flux Pavilion Remix) Leave the past behind, just walk away When it's over, and…
Cracks Feat. Belle Humble Leave the past behind Just walk away When it's over And my h…
Cracks ft Belle Humble Leave the past behind Just walk away When it's over And m…
Cracks Ft. Belle Humble Leave the past behind Just walk away When it's over And my h…
Don't Stop Don't stop The bass is kicking The bass is kicking I knew, …
Don't Stop the Rock There's a party in the house and we'll be rockin'…
Drop the Boom No es alarmatico No es problematico Es algo normal Dos chica…

Fasten Your Seatbelts Soundboy... Soundboy...you're too young to play that sound n…
Freestyle Noize Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey... Come on now If you really like…
Freestylers Well, they say you're having an affair You're living it up,…
Get a Life Are you a total addict? see-see-see-see-see-see-see-see-see…
Get a Life (Radio Edit) Are you a total addict? C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c'mon! U…
Get Get Down Are you a total addict? see-see-see-see-see-see-see-see-see…
Get Up no one can hear the things I whisper no one but…
Hard To Stay I offer you reality. You′ve got to stand tall and demand…
Here We Go One-two mike check 1998 Settin' it straight, for you and you…
In Love With You I'm in love with you, I know I saw you yesterday, but…
Looking for the Perfect Beat Universal B-boy, looking for the perfect beat Mortal motiva…
No Way Too far gone ain't no way back Too far gone ain't…
Pain Killer Ah-uh, ah-uh Jeah, jeah, jeah Lets it go Ah-uh, ah-uh C'mon,…
Painkiller (Ed Solo & Skool of Thought remix) (feat. Pendulum & Sirreal) ah-uh ah-uh jeah - jeah - jeah lets it go ah-uh ah-uh c'mon …
Painkiller feat. Pendulum and Sirreal Ah-uh, ah-uh Jeah, jeah, jeah Lets it go Ah-uh, ah-uh C'mon,…
Punks Teenage had a race for the nighttime Spent my cash on…
Punks (Krafty Kuts remix) Teenage had a race for the nighttime Spent my cash on…
Push think I saw your body before I saw your face, The…
Push Up (Plump DJs remix) I think I saw your body 'fore I saw your…
Push Up Radio Edit I think I saw your body ′fore I saw your…
Push Up Word Up think I saw your body before I saw your face, The…
Ruffneck Let the attack begin Freestylers, 'longside the navigator a…
Security A subtle wake, a familiar smell A certain scent controls the…

Told You So Excuse the smirk on my face I find it hard to…

The lyrics are frequently found in the comments by searching or by filtering for lyric videos

TRACKS

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01Drop The Boom / We Rock Hard1:30

02Al Naafiysh (The Soul) / Activ 8 / We Rock Hard1:29

03Security / We Rock Hard1:57

04Running / Get Down Massive3:00

05No Way Back / Ruffneck / Infiltrate 2021:44

06The Creator / Ruffneck / Activ 82:13

07Activ 8 / Bloomblast2:52

08Uptempo / Bloomblast1:12

09Closer To All Your Dreams / Fast Life2:31

10Playing With Knives / Push Up1:26

11Now Is The Time / In Love With You0:54

12Shock The Beat / In Love With You1:32

13In Love With You (Instrumental) / In Love With You / Here We Go3:40

14Break / Fasten Your Seatbelt / The Slammer3:45

15Let No Man Put Us Under / We Rock Hard / The Slammer3:08

16Break Of Dawn / Let No Man Put Us Under2:48

17Apocalyse / Beat It Down2:21

18Devils In Flight / Beat It Down / Steam2:27

19Fasten Your Seatbelts (edit)0:21

20The Slammer (Edit) / No Replica / Steam2:15

21Steam1:51

22Take Me Away / Steam1:55

PT1M55S

Freestylers

23Take Me Away (Edit) / Electrified / Steam1:11

24Push Up / Word Up1:53

25Get Up And Dance / Push Up3:03

26Fasten Your Seatbelt / Get A Life3:33

27Infiltrate 202 / Supersonic3:00

28Under Mi Sensi / Steam2:21

34Closer to All Your Dreams3:34

Genre not found

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Song not found

Most interesting comment from YouTube:

Foogod

1y↑49

"He's a lawyer, and he specializes in this, so I'd assume he'd know" umm.. any good lawyer who specializes in this would also know that Valve are the wrong party to send this request to in the first place, and this whole request is stupid. These are either (a) completely incompetent lawyers or (b) people doing this purely for the publicity of it (or quite possibly both).

In this situation, I believe that a competent lawyer could actually petition the court for an injunction which would allow Valve to put the game back up, and after obtaining that then request that Valve do so. Without an injunction, however, you're quite correct that Valve putting the content back up would be a violation of the DMCA and therefore make Valve a culpable party who could (and probably would) also be sued, and I'm pretty sure that Valve's lawyers are actually competent, and therefore would never let them do that.

It also doesn't actually matter whether Nexon ever released the game or not. If they actually created copyrightable aspects, even only in development, those were automatically subject to copyright the moment they existed in any form. A common mistake is thinking that copyright has to do with what you sell, but whether you actually sell something or not, or whether you actually make or lose any money or not, is completely irrelevant to whether a copyright violation has occurred. I can write a book and never publish it and just stick it in a drawer, never intending anyone to ever read it, but if somebody goes and takes it out and copies and publishes it without my permission, it's still a violation of my copyright just the same.

(I haven't really been following this in depth, so I'm not actually saying whether it was copyright infringement or not. However, just saying "they never released the game" doesn't actually get you off the hook in any way.)

Oh, and the fact that they did work there previously likely is relevant for the copyright angle, because it proves that they did have previous knowledge of and access to the alleged infringed work. If it were just some random group of developers who never had any relationship to Nexon, then they could potentially claim "well, we had no idea that other game even existed, and never saw it, so there's no way we could have copied it", but in this case they really pretty obviously can't make that claim.

All comments from YouTube:

Sam L

1y↑319

Yeah ain't no way Valve would do this. It would open them up to significant liability, they would be added to the suit against the D&D devs. They'd be directly profiting off of alleged copyright infringement. Until the suit by Nexon is settled, the game absolutely cannot go on sale in any respectable store.

JOE XD

52w

They will create their own game launcher if no stores wants them, at this point, only solutions, that's just a detail.
DrDisrespect game isn't on any stores available as an example like a lot of other games out there.

vodahmiin nonamehere

Which is Nexon's plan

Chavo Sprite

@Rainbow Dash Yes but the lawsuit is in North America

Rainbow Dash

But this is in Korea not usa

Heathensauce

Im happy to see this, tired of corporate profiteering. We need to remake copyright laws. The whole reason they were made was back in the era where records were being produced and the music industry claimed that by putting it on a record, it's the equivalent of going into the theatre and listening to it there. Back then music was one of the most profitable industries for the plutocrats but when records came out, they scrambled to control the market and limit the production of materials. Many people who produced the music had their own music stolen from them since the "rights" were owned by the publishers, ones who did nothing more than provide the music to those in the theatre industry. However, when records labels came out many of the hard workers who produced music had their rights taken from them by the publishers and sold in the new records market. Since many publishers viewed the producers as single use expendables. It wasn't until massive backlash that copyright laws were made to protect the producers but to this day this same issues happen. Many publishers own the rights and materials even though they did nothing to actually produce said material. This is further proof that when we work for corporations, we can't even own our own thoughts and ideas.

That is the ENTIRE point of copyright material. It's to own the thoughts and ideas of the workforce and very rarely does it actually benefit the workers because of the massive legal costs to get copyright on your material in the first place. It is only for the plutocrats to buy up and own. After all, did you never wonder why virtually all games have a publisher and aren't their own publisher? The system is built to limit the ownership of the workforces own thoughts, ideas, and talents. If we don't work under a conglomerate, we are liable to have our own work stolen from us or to be attacked in some way due to have any level of similarities to anything else.

Monster energy made a great example of this as they tried suing Pokemon, digimon, and anything with monster in its name because it claimed it caused confusion. This couldn't hold up in court but they have the money for the legal expenses and this is a great way to advertise your brand. Not only can the recuperate the costs, this controversy can actually make them money. (this is true story btw.) And what's more, if they had targeted smaller companies then it's liable the company would be pushed to change its name simply because the legal expenses would be too great and they didn't want to risk losing.

Just remember, at the end of the day you will own nothing and be happy. You won't even own your own thoughts and ideas, because those are the ownership of the corporations you work for.

11 More Replies...

Easyflux

1y↑149

Trying to explain law to people who are terminally online is like screaming into the void..

JOE XD

52w

Trying to explain to jury people, Nexon will be screaming..

SuperHello44

@Heathensauce Prelude to a homeless by choice story.

Mr. Nobody

@Heathensauce it goes back further than that, copyright in its earliest incarnations was colours and patterns for clothing that signified social rank, wearing clothes coloured and patterned in a way to misrepresent your house as someone else was a capital offence, and the common punishment was the wheel.

Heathensauce

Mr. Nobody

1y↑1

@Nino Chaosdrache The law only gets involved AFTER you get stabbed or Robbed, the reason we are safe in Europe is because we are civilised.

16 More Replies...

Kyle W

1y↑33

No need to look too far into this honestly, it's clearly for PR. No shot in hell Valve reinstates unless there is movement in the case, I don't think any lawyer or IM employee could think otherwise..

Fuzzy Barbarian

1y↑150

I'm not a lawyer, but I do remember Legal Eagle explaining copyright law, and yeah, no way Valve goes to bat for this.

What Ironmace has been doing with this case feels really... performative. The attempt to swing public opinion their way, the entire underdog narrative, now weirdly petitioning Valve? It just feels really unprofessional. Though I guess that is what the entire thing boils down to.

Anyway, thanks for continuing to cover this, Kira.

Chavo Sprite

@Hazamax Then said officer checks the contents of your wallet. oh my the contents do indeed belong to you. Not the person claiming you robbed them. Stupid comparative.

Nixcb2

@Ekki again all I'm saying is that IM seems genuine to me. I think it might be arrogant of you to judge their lawyers decisions but you might be right. Either way I don't have an opinion about the legal aspects of the case. The law is not an exact science and I will just wait to see how it plays out from afar.

Nixcb2

@Fuzzy Barbarian yes I said your use of the word performative is disingenuous. It's like you cannot read

Nixcb2

@Fuzzy Barbarian my issue is with your use of the word performative please try to use your brain.

19 More Replies...

Jake Logan

1y↑138

Valve won't do anything until the lawsuit is settled. This just screams to me like Ironmace are in the process of being caught with their pants down and are desperately trying to scrape together revenue to pay for legal fees.

Anna Bella

1y↑1

@Bomjus1

It could be them drumming up public outrage for their upcoming gofundme. If they try to “negotiate” with Valve and turn this into a “the big bad corps are trying to put us down”, then their fan base may be willing to fork over more money.

Willi Gangbang

1y↑1

@Jake Logan oh wow big information buddy, they NEVER had plans to make it free to play, the alpha playtest of course was free, the early access price was planned to be around 30-40 dollars and of course every developer wants to make money of his product, no matter what

some random name

1y↑2

@Bomjus1 it's called more revenue streams banking your entire legal fund on free donations is a bad idea especially when ur going up against a corporation with millions of dollars behind it

Chaos Star

yeah that's fair.

Bomjus1

1y↑2

@Chaos Star if this was about creating funds they would just open their gofundme. why would they petition valve to get the game on steam specifically to make money for the lawsuit?

6 More Replies...

Joe Po

1y↑7

Love the continued investigation into this case. It's a very interesting one and I appreciate your objective take the on the situation. I am curious if you ended up playing this recent playtest? I remember you saying initially when all this started you greatly enjoy the game and are disappointed as a consumer that's likely not to release.

Tathan

1y↑141

If i was Valve i would legit tell them to defeat the DMCA in Court 1st

Heathensauce

Lol asdm

1y↑3

how do they think they get away with this from a huge company

Zen

1y↑22

the devs are probably hoping to bank on the news coverage and by the time its over, most casuals will probably forget about dark and darker

Marco

1y↑10

They know Valve won't do anything about this. They probably did this to get some media coverage.

Wastingsometimehere

1y↑20

If they think making Valve look like the bad guys for not bringing them back will pay off for them, that's a bold move.

SuperHello44

1y↑1

Here's the thing. For some weird ass reason, this game has crazy tribalists that don't know anything. I actually think Ironmace is leaning hard into these idiots because they're really loud. They're just tailoring the narrative, adding more "responsible parties" to get the nerds going. They're basically just bumping their thread.

Ekki

1y↑1

@Keit 99 It shouldn't even be a controversial thing to say. Only reason some people don't get it is copium and maybe some people with a hate hard-on for Valve.

Keit 99

1y↑4

@Ekki it feels strangely desperate. Also If I had a web store I wouldn't reinstate them either. Too much risk...

Ekki

1y↑6

@Stuart MorleyThat's kinda the point, though. They want to play this off as Valve being one more corporation stepping over an indie dev. Their reputation is probably a big reason why they tried this in the first place.

Wastingsometimehere

1y↑11

@Stuart Morley It's hard to pressure them to do anything. Even things that would make them money.

1 More Replies...

thatHARVguy

1y↑47

Dark and Darker lawyers: "Nexon's claims relate to a game that Nexon never made and which does not exist."
Valve: "I missed the part where that's my problem."

Willi Gangbang

@TheStripyCat oh what a pity, if you had somebody doing the editing i would have subscribed, you seem to be a nice person on your videos for a good talk, not like crazy women like amber heard, we got enough of these. You should get employed in some way making use of your talents, personally i would give you a chance for sure, until you turn cheeky again (;

TheStripyCat

1y↑2

@Willi Gangbang it will be very interesting to see how this whole thing ends. I wish they televised the court same way they did with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.
Too bad I am not a YouTuber lol. I try making myself do the recaps of our gamedev journey, but video editing didn't turn out to be my passion * ^ - ^ *

Willi Gangbang

@TheStripyCat ok i get you, I didnt read their lawsuit that came out the last days and i thought it was only dealing with trade secrets, so taking now a quick look over it i can see they filed a 2 part case that includes copyright claims and i see you was saying that mona lisa is a common good, arguing for claiming a copryight for yourself is not possible by making little changes,i underestimated you, you are pretty smart for a girl. I wasnt sure if it applies since, i wasnt aware if the painting is a common good, but you got a great example in the bible, which is also a common good - lots of versions are being made by cutting off verses and changing the wording and all of them that changed the original got a copyright, the bar on copyrighted material is very low when it comes to changes, but since P3 was not a common good, all the details will have to be sorted out

P3 was publicly announced in the beginnings of August 2021, Choi left Nexon 2 months prior and Park left ~ 2 weeks after that, so it could be that they only released footage of older versions of the game until now, but thanks for making me aware of it, i dont think they are hard fucked, maybe a little bit to the point they have to switch up stuff, we will see.

good portuguese and russian accent are my favourite, they sound very similar, you should put out more of it instead being cheeky, its like music to my ears

TheStripyCat

1y↑2

@Willi Gangbang all these things were mentioned in the court filing, not DMCA. DMCA was just the beginning. The court file has all the details. And if Nexon mentions it there, they sure as hell have documents to prove it all in court (Kira does have a video on the court filing). A big company like that documents every step and I bet there are actually stamped or emailed approvals for every decision. Not to mention builds of the game. They don't need to show it all now. They need to persuade the court, not you. The available footage was released before they stopped working on the game if I am not mistaken, so some changes might have been made. And they are arguing that the first Dark and Darker playtest looked very much like the last version of P3 they had. So until the trial you can't claim they have no reason to claim copyright infringement. Because if everything they state in the actual court document is true and they can prove it, IM is in big trouble.
No, you can't claim copyright on that mona lisa with a crown just because you added or changed something. It's very unlikely to be considered a meaningful change that makes it a completely new piece of art. It will still be public domain. So if IM didn't make significant changes to the game, that would make Dark and Darker a significantly different from P3 game, they are fucked.
The girl is me and I am from Russia.

Willi Gangbang

@TheStripyCat can you name the video where this game document is shown that actually list these things?Because indeed, this are some things appearing in Dark and Darker, but this could be just another fantasy argument, which are always made in favor of Nexon, not sticking to reality or any evidence available out there/ that is out there - if there is, it must be pretty new since i was up to date until playtest 5 started on nearly anything appearing regarding the Ironmace vs Nexon case.

You are making up a case now where everything is identical, arguing other things than Nexon themselves in their DMCA paper, where they try to copyright a style, Nexon actually claims that the game takes place in a dungeon with brickwalls and torches that can be lit up is copyright infringement of Ironmace, so they are making up the argument, not me, same goes for the D&D classes, same goes for the artstyle ect.
I dont understand what you mean by "reversed pyramid", i actually played the game and did not encounter such a thing and i think you meant to say you can claim copyright on your mona lisa example, since its just completely the same with an irrelevant addition, not the other way around.

- so go on please show me the paper, looking at the available footage of P3 it looks different, chests look different and you can see a hand actually grabbing towards the chests on opening them, not a circular motion, i cant find any screenshots of the things you claim like pots on the waist and so forth

btw. where you got this girl from on your uploads?I really like her accent, sounds portuguese

4 More Replies...

Foogod

1y↑49

Arcane Armor

1y↑1

Did you look up who the lawyer is? Google Aaron Moss (Greenberg Glusker). The dude has court admission to the Supreme Court. That's not something they just hand out to any ol' attorney. Click on "representative matters". His resume might surprise you.

Finn Eogan

1y↑1

@Blood, Bath & Beyond Proud of your ignorance? So proud that you need to tell others of it? If it's too much too read for you, don't. Your choice. But disliking that someone takes their time to be thorough and pertinent, explaining stuff in detail - that is more than just a bit weird on Kira's channel, of all places.

Deus

1y↑10

@Clint Garrett This isn't how copyright works. Dark & Darker isn't "like" P3. It's P3 reskinned. The allegation isn't that Ironmace devs left Nexon to make a game in a similar genre or of a similar concept. It is that Ironmace copied data from P3, stored it privately off-site (without permission), and that many of the Unreal Store Assets (over 2k of which, mind you) are present in the game. Core concepts, central motifs and thematic elements, and many game design choices are identical in character or substance to what P3 was during its development.

It is possible for two separate entities to develop the same thing completely by accident; this is actually a recognized defense in copyright claims. One of the conditions for proving that someone is infringing upon your copyright is that they had access to the product that they are allegedly infringing. P3 was not released, but everyone making decisions on the Ironmace team worked for Nexon. And Nexon can prove that.

Another important factor of proving infringement is comparison of the works in totality. That the sum of their parts are the same, not individual parts. It's why you can have the same protagonist in every movie, but they go by a different name. You can absolutely copyright a game that is composed exclusively of Unreal Store Assets. In fact, if you couldn't, there would be no reason for any game developer to use them. They could never protect their games.

Think of it like this: When you write a book you type everything out letter by letter. You might get bored trying to think of stuff, so you look at other books like what you want to write. You can't copy entire chapters and paste them into yours. That is infringement. The author of that book doesn't own those words, or even those letters, but they do own that specific combination of words. Store Assets work the same way; you can copyright the games you make using them, even if the only assets used in the game were purchased on a store. And if someone releases a game that, on the whole, is the same game mechanically, conceptually, and visually, that game is probably infringing.

Foogod

1y↑8

@Clint Garrett You apparently didn't read the bit where I said I was not claiming anything about whether it actually was infringing or not (which has lots of nuances). My point was only that "they never released the game" is not actually a valid excuse under copyright law.

And you apparently also missed the point that Kira made several times in the video that Nexon already did take the necessary affirmative action by filling their lawsuit, which now needs to be decided in court. That stage of the DMCA is already long past.

7 More Replies...

Kimirik's Creations

1y↑3

I wonder if Ironmace is desperately trying to find funds for a drawn-out legal defense. My second thought is maybe they're setting things up for a possible countersuit down the road - hoping they'll win (or just survive) their first suit, then planning to countersue for damages based on projected (or "projected") sales starting on when their release date on Steam was to be.

Morgarino

loloolool

some random name

1y↑4

It's funny I have been seeing this come up and people frame it as big company going after competition but everything I've seen from dark and darker devs has been more and more sus
Asking valve to ignore a dmca seems like a really dumb shady thing to do Nexon seems like there in the right here and dark and darker devs seem like they know that so there trying to do anything they can to get public opinion on there side.

Talking Ed

1y↑26

Dark and Darker stuff it's always entertaining

NotxEevee

1y↑65

Gotta build up that public opinion though. It will definitely help them in a court of law. /s
To be fair, what do they even think Valve is going to do? They're a third party and were used only as a distribution platform for Dark and Darker. It's not Valve's problem nor their case to defend.
And if they did, as Kira said and as Sam L said in his comment, Valve could be taken to court for "profiting off of alleged copyright infringement" if they did re-host D&D.

Edit : Yes my first sentence was sarcasm.

TheStripyCat

@LeftWing Dragon I think they were talking about crowdfunding other games these devs will have to start making if they loose the court.

LeftWing Dragon

1y↑1

@PokerusFreak doesn't matter even if they get it crowfunded due to having popular opinion they wouldn't be able to release as it would be copyright and get struck down if on a third party platform or if being sold on their own website would be takes too court again. If they loose the case they won't ever be able to release it doesn't just affect their funding.

Cameron Keenan

1y↑2

@SociallyIneptClownPrinceChaos he's being sarky mate we all know popularity means fuck all in a court case

Morbid Eel

Public opinion might matter if Nexon's reputation wasn't already in the trash. That is part of why this situation exist!

PokerusFreak

1y↑1

@SociallyIneptClownPrinceChaos thats not really the point though, imo. whether or not the OP was being sarcastic with their own comment on it, the public opinion on things absolutely has a huge impact on reality outside of that courtroom. If they win public opinion then the court case doesnt matter to a certain extent, because even if they lose they can garner sympathy and people will help crowdfund them, buy into more games these devs make, etc.
Frankly, its damage control to take over the narrative of the situation

5 More Replies...

Lord Mephilis

1y↑11

If nothing else, it will galvanize their supporters if valve does not do as they ask. If they end up losing the lawsuit and therefore the game, they will have some hardcore supporters since they were "bullied"

Anna Bella

@Hazamax

It’s only pointless if it doesn’t work, and Ironmace hasn’t got any other good options. This is a last ditch gamble, done because they have nothing to lose by trying.

Hazamax

@Anna Bella Yeah, it just seems really pointless. People outside the gaming sphere treat it as... well, another entartainment. it's not like Nexon is taking down a cancer cure. They are taking down a single game.

The only thing they would stand to gain from this is punching Nexon's reputation but it was pretty bad without this already. We also have blizzard's case where the world shit on their image and now diablo 4 is an expected release by tons of people.

It just seems like a really pointless move to me.

Anna Bella

@Hazamax

I’d say their game at this point is to try and gain public support, knowing that the courts probably aren’t on their side.

My guess would be they’re going to attempt to weaponise public outcry before any court hearings and get the involved parties to settle out of court. That and maybe drag down any “corporates” they can, because they know it’s very easy to paint this sort of thing as “corporation evil, independent business good”.

Lord Mephilis

1y↑3

@Hazamax I think they are aware that the game is not coming back to steam and that they will probably lose the case and the game entirely.
So they put on a show that they are fighting to get people behind them, play on the love of a good David vs Goliath thing in hopes that they can carry this support onto whatever comes after its all over.
Either that, or they honestly think they can win this.

Hazamax

1y↑2

I get it but I don't? Court of public opinion doesn't matter in an actual court. If they lose the case they won't be able to put DaD on steam nor anywhere else.

Maybe it's to open up donations again, this time with their supporters revved up after steam "betrayed" them? I really don't get what's their game here.

cheef

I really want Ironmace to succeed and DnD to be released ASAP but that's just my desire to play more DnD talking. The longer Ironmace takes to actually battle this and provide defenses for the accusations, the worse it looks for IM. The allegations in that lawsuit would convince me that a theft happened if I had no dog in the fight.

Meowtron Star

1y↑32

Yeah, no, if I was running a company, my first concern would be not to get sued.

LordTourettes

1y↑8

Kira your content really has improved in just under a couple of months, daym.

Lulero Gaming

1y↑1

Found out about your channel a few days ago and I've been waiting for this video. Thank you.

Apollo -

1y↑6

I'm glad you tocuhed on the reddit comments. I think it'd be interesting if you went through them, or the "3rd year of law school" post on there about this as well and if they have a point or not. I think at this point its hard to argue that Ironmace did nothing wrong, but im curious on what the potential outcomes could be, especially with this new statement (finally from a lawyer from Ironmace's side!) added into the mix.

Dyalani

It's definitely going to be interesting to see where this goes eventually. One outcome that would be interesting is that the game gets developed by Ironmace but ends up being published by Nexon, therefor Nexon gets their cut.

Artemis

Genuininely asking, do you teally think there is no incentive for Nexon to commit perjury? Im not sure what the penalty is, but if its just a fine, they may eat the fine to delay competition. It seems like it would be a smart business move if they perceive the market they could take from DaD's absence is big enough.

TR1K 71

1y↑1

Keep up the good work my man, My respect is your's good luck...

Jono793

Valve has brought games back before now. Most prominent example I can think of was Star Control: Origins during the lawsuit between the creators of Star Control, and Stardock.

But I believe Stardock had to agree to indemnify Valve for any claims that might've been brought against them, to put the game back up.

I doubt Iron Mace have the resources to give those same assurances to Valve.

I don't remember

1y↑19

Lawyers asking for reinstatement based on what ever bs they argue is not law it's ignorance.

thedarklordx

@Mr. Nobody I don't fully get it, can you expand on what you mean by theater and auction in this context?

Arbalest

@Mr. Nobody i am under no illusion since someone can go to jail for shooting someone else breaking into their home or even actually defending themselves with lethal force.

Mr. Nobody

@Arbalest "law" is a theater when involving the rich, and an auction when involving the poor, dont be fooled.

Arbalest

1y↑2

lol have you seen court cases? both prosecution and defense play to ignorance, you had to have watched the amber v johnny case for any and all examples of playing ignorant on both sides, one more than other more so in that particular case.

1 More Replies...

A Guy

1y↑42

You can't explain anything to some people they like the game and that's it.

Asdercol

52w

@Heathensauce That's not what that person was talking about mate.

Also, tone down the black pill.

Heathensauce

SvendleBerries

1y↑8

lol I remember seeing this the other day. All I remember thinking was Valve responding with, "Yall are still in the middle of a lawsuit over this. Dont try and get us involved."

What are Ironmaces lawyers thinking? lol Are they just trying to bring other people into it to help pay their legal bills? Or to bring other people down with them? The fuck is wrong with them?

Demonic Goddess

thats the neat part, they OBVIOUSLY dont have lawyers

Stuart Morley

1y↑8

It's PR pure and simple. They obviously believe that the more they can paint themselves as a tiny indie developer done wrong by big companies the better it will spin for them. They are just using Valve as another stand in bad "big corp".

NaZtRdAmUs

1y↑44

Its a work to get the "community" onside.

Chavo Sprite

52w

@Asdercol ? What are you laughing about?

Asdercol

52w

@Chavo Sprite Hahahahahahahaha

Chavo Sprite

@PokerusFreak Innocent until proven guilty. Also baseless claims.

Keit 99

1y↑2

And while copyright law is outdated and needs a rework, this is a wholly different matter.

Mr Bubbles

1y↑3

@Smoked beef and cheese
Of coyrse you care about that law. You would absolutely be mad if someone stole something that belonged to you. Which is all copyright is. Proof that you own something.

5 More Replies...

kavinh10

1y↑22

kira and asmon are the only ones i've seen covering this with an actual brain cell. other content creators like moist are just pandering clickbaiters that blatently ignore reality to tell their audience what they want to hear.

The Joeker

52w

@Asdercol he’s had decent takes on other stuff as well, or at least takes that come from a place of rationality and reason and he justifies where he’s coming from well, similar to Moist. He had one in a very recent reaction vid for example.

Asdercol

52w

@The Joeker The one time Asmon has a decently based take in months...

Daniel Witt

one peg-

The Joeker

1y↑13

It’s a shame. I usually enjoy Moist’s content, he’s usually based and has decent takes, but he clicked on a breakdown video by Devin Nash and didn’t even watch it all before deciding Nexon Bad, Ironmace Good

I’m glad Asmon actually watched Kira’s vid and considered the points made

Carl Anderson

I've never played any Nexon game as far as I know, and I'd not even heard of Dark and Darker (D&D refers to a TTRPG to me), so I have no doig in this fight. But can't the same arguments (mostly) you made in the previous video (why would they [Nexon] say these things if they can't prove them easily) apply to IM? I'm interested in the result of this case if it goes to judgement (though I agree it probably won't) because it seems like one of the two sides has to be blatantly lying (or at least very badly mistaken). If IM isn't wrong here, then they will likely be able to collect significant damages from Nexon. If they are, then they are done and we could see multiple employees being ruined. Discovery should be interesting for both sides.

As you mentioned multiple times, you aren't a lawyer (nor am I), but I have some indirect experience with trade secrets and the law. In the US, it's very, very limited protection. So limited that some lawyers won't even bother trying to handle the cases, not because they don't specialize in it, but because the protections are so weak and it's so easy to accidentally destroy even those protections. They might have a great case, but I wouldn't put much stock in that side of it because it's so easy to misunderstand what the law actually lets you protect with it.

A lot of the details you read previously for the copyright portion looks to me to fall under Scènes à faire (scenes that must be done). Trying to protect anything that even touches upon generic concepts like that are going to be extremely difficult to win on in a US court. Unless the lawyers on IM side are incompetent, they can at a minimum "muddy the waters" enough to prevent that from counting for much, if anything. But then again, this petition seems pretty incomprehensible, so maybe they are incompetent?

George Marple

You also have to realize for a lawyer this helps their case if they win. Because it shows they attempted to get their game back on on steam and distributed to their consumers. So even though we all know valve won't relist. It's basically a formality.

Mugnum

Thanks for the round downs, wouldn't be able to stomach all the legal texts myself

jamez0r

1y↑4

Thanks for continuing to follow/report on this!

Global warming i̶s̶ h̶o̶t̶

1y↑2

There's absolutely no reason for Valve to even consider this

tinde Kappa

I've never heard a lawyer ''ask'' anything, their job is to demand. The ceo or cfo should ask Valve foe something that's a matter of business between 2 business partners. This just looks like the Ceo went crying to his big brother for help.

Nim

1y↑1

Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of IRONMACE stink of desperation. Feels bad for the rank and file employees, but that project lead who decided he wanted to cut out Nexon has doomed Dark and Darker.

Alexander Falconer

1y↑4

Trying to gain the love of the public. It's amazing what people will excuse if they like something. Similar to the Bleak Faith situation where backers were coping about stolen assets and a terrible launch, nothing's stronger than a rabid and dedicated fan base and this is a clear attempt to win people over by getting them to play and get invested in their product

Newt-Hands McCoy

Keep up the good work man

Neil Blaiberg

From what I can tell, copyright is going to be hard to prove.
Trade secrets is far more likely. But I guess DMCA is the "quicker route" to getting it pulled

Mr Bubbles

1y↑1

Undoubtedly. And likely something Nexon had to do as well. After all, it can’t be that damaging to you if you allow it to remain up.

Kolljak

1y↑3

Steam has a strange history of removed games never seeing the light again, despite the problems of them being removed being fixed, look at Neverwinter Nights 2 platinum edition for an example.

Ekki

1y↑2

It's not strange. Lawsuits set a precedent and they are in the line of fire by hosting games. It may look harsh (and even be needlessly harsh) but it's a perfectly reasonable business decision to minimise risk.

Not Available

1y↑3

Steam is a storefront and not forced to host anything.

JDReC100

To add on:
Red Candle Games

PokerusFreak

1y↑3

Lets be real, this entire article was clearly written by someone who wants to buy into this whole underdog persecuted narrative whether or not its true, or it wouldnt be written the way it is. Valve isnt going to put the game back on the platform just because they're asked to and it's extremely obvious why. Until the legal drama is settled, its not just unlikely but damn near impossible for them to put the game back onto the platform without taking on risk that they absolutely have no reason to take on. Just the fact that this article phrases things in a way that implies otherwise shows that the author is rooting for one side regardless of the facts, and has already made up their mind what they want to happen.

Personally, I am much more interested in the facts of this situation, because I love supporting indie devs and the vast majority of games I buy are from indie devs, but I'm not interested in supporting a dev that feels the need to lie cheat and steal to get their game out. I support indie devs because they have a genuine love for gaming and their games, generally, and this kind of behavior shows a love for money more than a love for the game. I'm not interested in supporting a company that's going to take all those corporate strategies and apply them to indie gaming over a love of money, that defeats the entire purpose.
Whether or not you like the source of the facts, they still exist. If Nexon can actually back up their arguments legally then the dark and darker devs really have no leg to stand on, whether or not I like big gaming corporations. If the devs of dark and darker really stole this shit to tank the game someone else was making and profit off of it themselves instead, I dont want to support them whether or not I prefer indie games and indie devs.
The facts of the situation matter, regardless of personal opinions

Horo Boro

Enjoyed your last point Kira. A lot of being successful in anything is playing all the angles, and Iron Mace would be silly not to try to rally for some public support.

Framing is the most important tool in a lawyer's toolbox.

Must be strange to get random asshats on the internet calling you "not smart".

Filip Augustowski

I think the people who talk in the subreddits and discord are against you but thats a fraction of the community. I am an Ironmace andy and a moron, but I think many Dark and Darker fans are paying attention to what is going on, and that Nexon does have a decent-strong case. At the same time though, I think we are at a point where Nexon has shared more information than Ironmace. All I hope for is a good twitch stream of the court when the case happens

chstens

It'll be interesting to see Nexon's version of the game in court, but yeah, this doesn't look good for Ironmace

I Dream of Glitches

Appreciate your coverage of this story, Kira. I agree with almost everything you have pointed out.
There are 2 things from the last playtest though, I do not think were changed to hide or deflect the copywrite/tradesecret claims.

--Starting in the Forest: According to interview by Onepeg with Terence after Playtest#3 this was asked about and answered that eventually was part of their goal to start on a different floor. This was already planned before the lawsuit and Nexon calling them out. Reference in the vid 46:00 if you want to check it
--The Lighting: The new lighting was reverted in the middle of the last playtest back to its original state. Though it was still a bit suspicious how much the Torch handling/throwing gameplay changed, the fact they changed the lighting back in the middle of the playtest would not make any sense if they had changed it to avoid appearing similar. Also, there were several hotfixes during this playtest and many bugs. Many bugs were fixed but not all of them. The lighting change was included in the hotfix. This means that with only 1 week of a playtest window, while constantly being DDoSed (they claimed) and dealing with some game breaking bugs, they intentionally spent some of that time and effort on reverting the Lighting back to the original state that is being contested as a design tradescret.

Thanks again for your ongoing neutral and logical approach to these situations.

I Dream of Glitches

52w

@TheStripyCat Um because, its a playtest, They are still working on the game. Its not ready yet? Why change things? because its a playtest.... All the floors were not ready yet. The reasons? Narrative and fantasy design, they have been planning that before this Nexon lawsuit came out. They are in the design phase ALPHA, not beta, not early access. THey were not even sure this B1 - / outdoor area would be ready in time for this last playtest. Yes and Ironmace also shared with us the Git history to try prove their authenticity. Can you name any other situation where a developer shared this info with is? they didnt have to, they arent legally obligated to share that with us, but yet they did. They want so badly to prove their innocence they shared with is their private/personal Git history. The lighting changes are strange but its moot when they are in alpha test and literally trying to test the game WITH PLAYER FEEDBACK. It still does not make sense why they would revert the lighting back mid-playtest if it is so incriminating?

TheStripyCat

1y↑1

actually, these things add even more suspicion in my opinion. Why build a whole area you are not going to use eventually? Makes sense only if you have a ready made scene that you can use as a placeholder. If they made if from scratch, knowing they would change it, it should have made sense as in being easier/faster because they already knew how to do it (remaking old is not building new). If they decided to change it later, then why? Tavern makes most sense for DnD inspired game - it's where adventurers get contracts usually. Why stray away from that? Only maybe if they knew they needed to make changes for the game to differ from something.
From what I heard from more experienced gamedevs, lighting in Unreal engine is difficult to master. The new lighting might have had an undesired effect on surroundings, gameplay, atmosphere. Maybe some textures looked wrong in the new lighting, maybe enemies were harder or easier to spot, maybe it affected the transparent magical shields or portals. So they had to go back to earlier settings that worked. It only proves even such thing as the light needs to be designed and thoroughly tested in all parts of the map in all game situations. Which is why preproduction takes so much time. So where did they get the previous settings for the light that worked? Reverting the light back was probably faster than fixing the new light. Especially since they use Github which stores versions of your project and you can see which changes you made and revert them pretty easily.

Raizion Yokoto

1y↑2

Dark and Darker already has a community more then willing to fund the lawyer fees required to fight back the suit. It's probably a PR move more then anything.

Lulero Gaming

1y↑3

What a mess. I want to believe Ironmace but not sure I can. I hope we eventually get to know more about what actually happened. Please keep us updated, I wouldn't trust anyone else on that topic.

Asdercol

52w

@cheef I hope some of them do. Criminal stuff is criminal stuff. Sure I'd like for the more ignorant bandwagoners of them to not take the fall for the more responsible (for the theft) ones, but you get the idea.

cheef

I feel the same way. I was 100% "Fuck Nexon! this is retaliatory and opportunistic!" and now all I can think is that I really hope the Ironmace devs don't go to jail. Those alphas might be the last we got to play of the game.

Eden Parnell

I think they see this as a win-win. If valve puts the game back, they're roped into the lawsuit and ironmace has a better lawyer. If they refuse, the Ironmace can say Valve is in on bullying indie devs

Eden Parnell

@jacobasnodgrass5853 ironmacele seems like they have a victim complex here and is trying their hardest to just sway public opinion

Jacoba Snodgrass

1y↑1

that's beyond brain dead, though. steam is literally know as the home of great "indie" games.

Jake Andrews

Wonder if this is just a hail merry to see if something actually comes of it; Because most of what little I know about this case, Nexon (which is a garbage company) is.... actually in the legal right, moral right is another thing that I am to lazy to put much thought into at the moment.

Ian K

1y↑1

Being mad at you is pretty much the textbook definition of "shooting the messenger".

Lenariet

Could a judge think of IM altering things that Nexon mentions like where you start the game and such as manipulating evidence? How does that work when such software is concerned?

Mr Bubbles

1y↑1

A judge could do that. In fact Nexon is likely to bring the fact they changed stuff up.

‘If they are innocent, why are they changing things?’

HungryHedgehog

1y↑1

I doubt Steam would take the bullet for some indie dev. They are corporation that is here to make money, there is 0 incentive for them to do it, especially if there is a lawsuit. But let's hope their lawyer is right.

The Daniel Droege Show

Valve could bring it back, but they would have to pay Nexon all of the money they made if Nexon won, just like Iron Mace in addition to their legal fees and any punitive damages they could prove.
This seems like a PR move to get people to financial support their legal defense, because if they could prove their innocence to Valve, they would relist the game.

The yellow light could be an entire environmental lighting system running under the hood. I don't know much about UE5's new lighting system which seems to make things easier and less performance intensive, but before that, companies would spend thousands of dev hours on environmental lighting alone.

Sorry you are getting hate just for sharing the information along with your opinion. I supposed people only think you should get one of those if it is similar to theirs.

Ekki

Valve would be sued as soon as they upload the game and lose way more than just that. Not only for paying legal fees, but other corporations will see this as a precedent. It would completely destroy their control over the market. It's painfully obvious that the request won't go anywhere.

Mr Bubbles

1y↑6

The lawyer might have a point if their clients hadn’t stolen the source codes and files and were not currently busy desperately changing things.

romegypt

1y↑2

there is literally no proof they stole anything. Their data privacy agreement with nexon REQUIRED THEM to delete the server data.

1 More Replies...

Hona Leri

This is a sign....
They need to pay for a better lawyer.

Khandi Mahn

1y↑1

Valve isn't going to bring back a game when Nexon has such a good case against the game. The only reason to ask this is a PR move to try and garner sympathy.

Purple Daddy

1y↑3

"I like to point out the person disagreeing with me posts on the conspiracy theory subreddit" fuckin had me dying.

hitorinishitekure

looking at people's reddit history is the best. it's always something shocking and depraved

Luth

1y↑2

17:00 Even if they showed no evidence for anything claimed in the lawsuit, the argument from the guy makes no sense. If you don't have to, why show any evidence before it becomes even relevant on court? Nexon's side would just give away an advantage by showing the other side what they can actually prove. Maybe Nexon's lawyers are tiny bit more rational and smarter than the average redditor, particularly the ones that are high on copium.

Ryuho the Wolf

1y↑3

People do realize that the planning phase of development counts as part of a game's development, right? Like if the team was together putting together ideas for the greenlit game project, those are still part of the development of that game. Even if there wasn't anything playable yet that doesn't suddenly make all the ideas being readied for the game open for anyone to use.

The small company taking on the big evil guys is a great thing to get behind but that people are just shutting off their brains with it to this degree is just goofy to me. Who is in the right will likely be decided by the courts but it very much looks like the little guy has done and continues to do things wrong here while the big evil company does have an actual point.
The big guy vs the small guy is a thing where we root for the small guy because the small guy is trying to do good while the big guy is doing bad. Just being the smaller entity does not make them good or right. Wanting the people who did a criminal action to win because the are the smaller entity just destroys the whole point of that scenario.
Regardless they are well set up in the west to be the good guy no matter how the court decides things

Chavo Sprite

52w

I agree up to a point but their "Ideas" are things that are public domain. They literally have no claim to any of those "Ideas" If they did have claim they would have to sue Dungeons and Dragons, & Unreal Engine as well.

Anton Dovydaitis

1y↑22

I can't help hearing "Dakka Dakka!"

kenneth kujala

1y↑1

waaagh

M A

1y↑3

It's krumpin time

Velothi Priest

1y↑4

Ere we go!

sdc

If like you say it's hard to fire people at Nexon, and everybody on the project quit in one month I think you can put 2 and 2 together.

Carl R

As the game sales so far have more than likely been used to fund development of the game and if they are expecting a long legal battle there's a good chance they need to sell more copies of the game to fund their legal defence

SoundBubble

There has never been any game sales, only free playtests. They funded the development through private investments till now.

version46

1y↑1

They can try to find any other storefront to sell the game but it opens up those retailers to the same DMCA liabilities and since this is the same Valve who lets almost anyone onto steam, who else is gonna take the risk?

Caustic Crisis

i think its just a counter reply to the dmca as they have to have a counter back anyhow of course the game wont get back on steam until this is settle and whatever the end results are and that will also say if it goes back on steam or NOT.

J0evil

People are so passionate about stuff and throw all logic out the door.

Reed

This story just keeps getting darker and darker.

RhythmAndBlues

I’m enjoying following this. Even though I’ve no interest in the game(s), specifically.

Jeffrey Warren II

1y↑1

Like I said before Nexon beef is with that dev, not really Iron Mace. I want Dark and Darker but with that said I don't like how they are fueling the public to destroy what little rep Nexon has. I really don't like nexon at all (ex maple story player) but it don't mean I throw out logic because my feeling are hurt.

Vash the Stampede

1y↑1

Well I guess they don't even need to go to court, Moss clearly understands the law very well and is making his objective informed decision

Mat Broomfield

Kira, I completely agree with you when you (paraphrasing) say "It's not the use of any one asset, but the collective use across hundreds or thousands of assets." In an earlier video, you showed how Iron Mace had made very specific choices for the WAY those assets were animated that was NOT a mere asset rip.
On the subject of "yellow light," it is conceivable that the precise shade of yellow, especially if expressed as a colour temperature, which has a near infinite range of values, could serve as a theft fingerprint. It's one thing to say "Yellow," but quite another to say a temperature of 3651, especially if that setting is non standard.
There's no WAY that Iron Mace walks away from this as victors, and zero chance that Steam would want to insert itself into this wrangle as they have no legal obligation to accept ANY product for distribution/sale.

Thor Beerson

1y↑3

It makes a lot of sense, they are putting down the groundwork for their legal case, it might or might not help them in the case, but it doesn't cost them anything to do this.

Kira

52w

So where in this does it not cost anything to write the letter?

Thor Beerson

52w

@Kira that means you didn't read the comments you are responding to, frankly we're starting to run in circles here
To break it down in clear terms:
1: Ironmace hire lawyers to defend them from Nexon lawsuit
2: Lawyers start building the case, collecting relevant information, researching similar cases (this is US law we're talking about), deciding their strategy
3: Lawyers, with permission from Ironmace, petition Steam as part of their case preparation to get some extra "ammo" in the court during the Nexon vs Ironmace trial

Kira

I have no idea what you're talking about to be honest. Retaining a lawfirm to defend you in a lawsuit doesn't mean the work they do on other things that aren't directly related to the lawsuit are not billable hours. To send this letter to valve it absolutely cost a bunch of money, that is literally my only point. It isn't very complicated. Your original comment said "but it doesn't cost them anything to do this" is simply not true. It costs cash money to get a lawyer to draft a formal letter. A lot of money actually. That is literally all I'm saying. I'm not sure how that is even an arguable point unless you think they work for free?

Thor Beerson

@Kira By that logic the statement is always incorrect because you'd have to include the cost of living as a cost of doing anything, it's a ridiculous argument. It doesn't cost them anything extra to do that, any reasonable person should be able to tell that's the intention behind the statement.

Kira

I'm suggesting the statement "it doesn't cost them anything to do this" is absolutely incorrect. Thought that was clear.

5 More Replies...

Rannigan

Honestly the things Ironmace are doing just give me more doubt about their honesty. First doing the current/previous(dunno if its still going) test where you had to download the game via torrent, which imo is scetch so I didnt download it, and now this trying to appeal to steam to try to get their game back on steam,...

thePhuntastics

Nexxon should be smart and cash in. Agree on a 25% revenue share and haven release their game

Guru

1y↑2

It's funny people think you have some vendetta against Iron Mace and Dark and Darker, when all you have done is show the details of the situation, as they have been presented. Nobody genuinely wants this game to fail, but the truth is what it is, no matter what you actually want to be true or not.

Heythat'sPhil

1y↑1

I've been waiting for this since I saw the PC Gamer article

Illuminati

Companies often have a clause in the employment contract disallowing working in the same field for 6-12 months after quitting. Normally, if you produce something on your accord with your own effort, that looks extremely similar to someone's project, it is not a plagiarism, even if you use the same publicly available/publicly traded assets.
However, the problem is, as an employee of company X, you can reproduce by memory almost completely their proprietary code, using your own effort. Determining whether this is plagiarism is much more complicated, as there is not a hard boundary on how similar something must be to be a plagiarism. Usually, a company product and your own memory reproduction will sufficiently differs in 6 months, as they both change.
However, if they used proprietary assets or codebase from Nexus and build on top of that as continuation of abandoned project (especially immediately after leaving), that would be a problem.

romegypt

Because the developers haven't made more than 115k a year since working on Dark and darker, those clauses are considered void by the state of washington.

Incoherent screaming

52w

I love how people are upset over an opinion, like Kira has any impact on the outcome.

Gino Hermens

1y↑1

I bet it is nitpicking on work for Dark and Darker that technically has been done on company time and dime of Nexxon and is the only portion they will keep pushing about. Even if the work has been redone i don't see them backing off.

Boosway

Always down for some internet reads

Hazamax

1y↑1

I mean, I don't think valve pulled the plug in a panic. With the whole shitshow they are having, I don't see what they expect to get by begging valve to put them back on the shop.

MrDKReaper

1y↑1

onepeg has a copy of the legal paperwork they have sent to valve, its a really good read and a good argument

d0c13dff943c5b67f411732304b6f46f

1y↑1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as the devs file a counter dmca notice, Valve can reinstate the game. The matter then will be decide in court, the DMCA is precisely designed so that intermediaries don't have to be the judge of copyright disputes as long as they follow the notice/counter notice process.

Cain XVII

1y↑5

If Ironmace had filed this counter to Valve and there wasn't a lawsuit, then Nexon would be asked to respond with a lawsuit or the game would be reinstated. Since there already is a lawsuit, Valve cannot put the game back up without getting involved.

SvendleBerries

1y↑3

Ironmace are in the middle of a lawsuit over Dark and Darker. Valve reinstating Dark and Darker now would get Valve involved in the lawsuit. Nobody with any brains would do that. Besides, Ironmace needs Valve a LOT more than Valve needs Ironmace. If anything, this petition feels more like a desperate appeal to public opinion more than anything else. Theyre hoping public backlash with fix everything. It wont.

SoundRogue

What I don't get is; why doesn't the studio just make more assets/ make a different game instead? Lawsuits can get expensive, it's going to cost more on the lawsuit front than it is going to be on making a new game.

Mr Bubbles

1y↑2

Well first because they thought they’d get away with it. All of the stuff with the server proves they thought they wouldn’t be caught.

And now…any changes they make proves Nexon right.

Special Assault Ops

Well, it's like with The Day Before when they had a similar problem over a trademark dispute!

A2B

uh... no

ArcheRazor

1y↑45

Releasing a torrent for the latest play test surely wont backfire on them when they are in the middle of multiple lawsuits, and couldn't possibly be seen as blatant disregard for the copyright infringement claims they have been served . This company is doing everything wrong to win their case if they do go to court.

Mr Bubbles

1y↑3

@SpeedeyFreaks They did not say it was illegal for them to do. They said doing so makes them look guilty as sin and will absolutely be used against them in court as a result.

The Daniel Droege Show

1y↑24

@SpeedeyFreaks Nobody said it was a criminal act. He said it makes them look like clown shoes.

SpeedeyFreaks

1y↑7

Only if they lose the case. Otherwise I think the Copyright Infringement accusation derives from the DMCA takedown on Steam, and thus prevents them from releasing the game on Steam. Also Torrenting is NOT unlawful, piracy is, make the distinction. It just so happens it is easiest through torrent. Either way, it holds no ground as an accusation.

Takinyourdata

It’s so funny they call it competition..you can’t compete with elden ring 😂

lightuptheL

1y↑1

they had been talking about the first floor for a long time, way before the nexon problem came to light which was going to above ground.. so i honestly don tthink that 1 will be a good arguement

Arcane Armor

This is 100% correct.

Atlas FGC

1y↑4

Sounds like IM is trying to get people to miss the forest for the trees.

Corey Turgeon

1y↑1

have you seen the onepeg video with the letter from the lawyer that is representing ironmace??? Its got a lot of info and makes it look a lot better for Ironmace. Who knows how this goes!?!?!

Corey Turgeon

@hitorinishitekure hahaha no i did see that one! Lmfao thats funny!!

hitorinishitekure

1y↑1

did you see when onepeg brought his daughter on camera to try and shame g0at (who was revealing the massive cheating in tarkov) because tarkov is his livelihood and it's the only way he can feed his poor child

SoundBubble

1y↑5

It's crazy to me how many people cannot comprehend the idea that the lawsuit exists as a whole argument, not a bunch of singular points. So many people, including "game journalists" such as GamesIndustry biz, write comments and articles ridiculing how Nexon is trying to copyright basic fantasy tropes when that's clearly not the point of this lawsuit.

UnreasonableOpinions

1y↑2

When you have the facts on your side, you pound on the facts. When you have the law on your side, you pound on the law. When you have neither the facts nor the law on your side, you pound on the table.

It was a dumb name so I changed it.

1y↑15

The reason IM's lawyers would request Valve to ignore their policy and reinstate the game isn't because they think Valve will do it. They know Valve won't and that there's no way the request will be granted.

They do it to establish a baseline for calculating damages. The day they ask Valve to reinstate the game is the date from which their damages will be calculated until the time they are reinstated and/or win the lawsuit. To put another way, at some future point when they hypothetically win the lawsuit (*) and ask for damages, Nexon's lawyers are going to say "But they didn't even ask to have it reinstated, so they can't claim that they lost money."

(*) I'm not taking a position on who I think will win. If the allegations in the complaint are true, IM is fookt. But we won't know until it is or isn't proved.

Lenariet

@TheTrashMan Oh, okay, my bad, I thought they were selling it before.

TheTrashMan

@Lenariet no, because the game was previously free on steam. they are now asking valve to reinstate the game to be sold. so they could ask for damages now.

Lenariet

1y↑3

Maybe. But if not for Nexon their game would still be active on Steam. They could just calculate damages from there. I doubt any sane judge would think that IM willingly or by negligence forfeited monetary gain because they didn't try to appeal something that in their opinion shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Just seems like a silly second hoop to jump through.

1 More Replies...

hitorinishitekure

what do y'all think about Ironmace distributing the game on Discord & torrent and also people streaming it on Twitch

dogwort

1y↑4

Kira, I see utorrent in your hotbar, just thought i'd let you know that it is adware

Gentle Puppet

+1 for this. Personally I use deluge for the rare times I torrent anything.

Zack Hawn

Can anyone explain to me how or why Nexon didn't DMCA Amazons servers? I was expecting the servers to go down any second while playing after seeing that Nexon was DMCAing Nexons twitter posts. Just seems like the next logical step for Nexon to go to would be to after server hosting providers.

Ekki

That's not how a DMCA works.

Silent Hill3r

1y↑5

Amazon's servers don't "distribute" the content.

Lukáš Klíma

I am 100% sítě, steam has in his conditions that they won't publish game with ongoing lawsuit, it will be probably one of reasons why you need have that filled in their region.

Todd Taylor

1y↑14

Pretty sure Steam can't bring your game back just because you call Nexon meanies.

Simon Wood

1y↑1

@projectingproductions333 It doesn't matter how much proof they send to Valve. Valve is not a court. Perhaps Ironmace should tell the judge instead and get the case thrown out if they have so much proof?

Ekki

@projectingproductions333Tell me you don't understand law nor hosting sites without telling me you don't understand them 😂

Valve can be sued as long as the threat of legal action is on IM. There's no world where it's reasonable for them to just host the game because they were "mailed proof", whatever that means. Which also tells me you don't understand burden of proof. They can't prove they haven't commited copyright infringement because it's on Nexon to prove it. So there is nothing they can send to Valve to "prove" their innocence since it can only be disproven. Innocent until proven guilty works like that.

projectingproductions333

There is an entire article they had sent to steam with proof one peg got this Kira didn’t hmmm 🤔

Jeff Grogan

1y↑1

There's nothing more unhinged as a gamer on reddit defending something they love.

On_space

there doing it to make their drones (fans) go and harrass valve, they're grabbing a Molotov and throwing it at the people who had nothing to do with it