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The Woodgrafter
+Roger Marrs
Hi Roger, the Incra LS is one of those tools that gets easier with use - it reall does become second nature pretty quickly. Just one hell of a learning curve.
Although I can live with the templates dictating the width of the stock. I struggle a bit with the through dovetails setting the thickness of the stock and having to have some sort of thicknesser to get a good fit. That’s not a problem if you have a thicknesser - but if you buy in ready prepped stock - then it gives you a problem. It is fantastic for blind and box joints.
Yes it does give you precision on the MFT - but in the reall work how often do you need that, you tend to measure once set a stop and then use relative dimensioing on other pieces. So I wouldn’t be buying it just for that.
I am loving the simplicity of dogs on the MFT, you could actually get away with no fence and just use dogs to line things up.
I haven’t used the Incra flip fence - but you can guarantee it will be good quality, they use the same mechanism for positioning the shop stop on the LS - so I do have experience if that side of things. I tend to find it to be fussy to adjust, you lift it out of the teeth and then move it - so not a precise asjustment - once it’s in place it is rock solid. But people do love it - and recommend it.
The other issue I see is in its size - it won’t slide under the Festool rail for thinner stock, so the end of the material is unsupported near the cut. You can put in a sacrifial piece of wood - but then that negates the use of the fence...
Bench Dogs also do a fence that uses flag stops and can be mounted flat or stood up, I haven’t seen it yet - but Bench Dogs are sending me one over for review -so may be worth while waiting until I get that review out - should be within two weeks
Thank you for getting in touch, and glad you like the channel.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Hi,
Welcome to the party and thank you for taking the time to comment.
I have never seen a detailed discussion on the dovetails either in a forum or in a video - I did revisit both the blind and through dovetails as part of the coffee table series in this video
https://youtu.be/QIkjLFWZScE
So it may give you some more insights - not as in forth but still shows the steps I now use (having spent many hours with the Incra).
It’s a good idea though - so may make a stand-alone video (probably as part of the web site content) looking at perfecting the joints, given that most of the world has now stopped commissioning furniture builds - the business is pretty much static.
Check out the video link I provided and come back with any questions.
Cheers
Andy.
The Woodgrafter
Hi Thank you for the kind word. I love the Incra so the learning curve (steep as it is ) is well worth the effort. I am glad you are taking the time.
So your questions
1 - yes, you are limited to the thickness of the wood as stated in the template guide. However - some clever folks have created some software that will allow you to design your own templates and overcome this limitation - have a look at this http://lowrie.github.io/pyRouterJig/
2 - once you have raised the bit you leave it as is and then thickness the stock to that height. Ultimately it is the bit height that dictates the thickness of the stock - without a thicknesser (planer) you will struggle on the through dovetails - the other joints aren’t as critical.
3 - IF you stock is EXACTLY the same width to the thousandth of an inch (or mm) then you are correct, however if you have any deviation then the center may be in the center for one piece, but not another. That variance will show in the final product - as the edges don’t line up. Not a big issue - but the ref faces help remove that. But to be honest I overthought it in the original video - and now I don’t worry about it.
Hope this helps.
Andy
Tom LeTourneau
No joke, when I say you are an outlier, Andy. In all my years on YouTube I’ve never corresponded so generously with an artist. Thank you for your patience. Your thoughts are well taken. I’ve been researching this issue through the blogs and discovered I’m not alone in frustration. The crux of the situation seems to be that many Incra LS users find that when they begin the fitting process by setting the bit height near or equal with the recommended thickness in the templates, adjust the height by moving the bit up for tightness, the bit lends up higher than the stock by too greater a degree for final through dovetail fitness.
In my case With DOVS, I began with the bit at the stock height of 3/4 inch (which was equal to my board thickness exactly). I went next through the fitting process. By the time the two pieces fit snugly, the difference between the board exact thickness (3/4 inch) and my bit height was nearly 1/16 inch higher. I measured this (obviously apparent looking at the stock on the table, flat next to the bit)... and (because I’m OCD) with a caliper: board 49/64 inch, tail 52/64. A difference surely too much to have final workable results.
Lest you think this particular case was an exception, others seem to have this issue. And of course I went through this process with another through dovetail template and with 1/2 inch stock. Similar results. Overall many forum commentators see this as an Incra LS template issue. I reference this as an example (but it seems odd to imagine):
“Incra Comments
LS Positioner Troubleshooting
Through Dovetails
Recently a customer had a problem getting through dovetail to fit correctly. The depth of cut on the template was much smaller than reality. He was using the template 16 (MDOVI) with a 16 mm / 7 deg router bit and 15 mm thick stock. Depth of cut was approx. 15 mm on the template but his test was 16 mm plus.
We tested the depth of cut ourselves, and found the true depth for a tight fit was 16.65 mm, a big difference. Our experience with the templates for half blind dovetails was a difference of less than .5 mm. Something was wrong. Cutting the joint confirmed our fears; the tails and pins were too long by 1.5 mm. Sure, you can plane or sand the ends flush, but this is not the idea from Incra.
OK, in the instructions it says to set the depth of cut, AND THEN, plane the stock to just on or just under the depth of cut – never lower the bit to the thickness of the stock as the joint will be too loose. This would mean using stock approx. 16.6 mm thick for our customer’s project. If you have a thicknesser at home, this will work, but what about stock bought from a shop, at 15 mm thick?
The solution is to ignore that depth of cut setup. Firstly, centre the router bit to the stock (usually step 2). Remember here, to centre the bit, you actually don’t need to have the bit at the final correct height. We centred with the bit at only 10 mm or so. Then set the bit height at just on the thickness of the stock – here, 14.95 mm. Then you can proceed with the 3 cutting stages needed for a through dovetail. When we tried this, the result was a tight fitting joint.
So, half blind dovetails with the LS Positioner are more forgiving regarding stock and router bit height, but through dovetails is easy to produce with the system, with a bit more thought regarding stock selection.”
This is a lengthy comment, but the bottom line is the question: If one has to thickness (plane) the boards to come very close to the bit height (for through dovetails), should the user only need to thickness (plane) the pieces DOWN to match the bit height that allows a good test fit? (My precise 3/4 inch boards were thinner than the needed bit height).
I can just imagine some of your followers shaking their heads at this exchange. Believe me, I can relate. All the best to you. I will persist in learning.
Tom
The Woodgrafter
Oh very interesting, so it is know issue - I guess I never have encountered this because I size my stock to the bit height. I design a project and then say "the stock is about 15mm - what template will work, that looks nice - all use that" then set the bit and then size the stock. So it design;t mater to me if the stock is 15mm or 15.2mm.
Now the approach you mention is interesting on many levels, find the centre, set the bit height to the thickness of the stock and crack on - if that actually works then that is a game changer and a better approach than the recommended Incra one.
I can feel a new video coming up in the very near future to explore this for all of us.
Thats why these kind of debates are so good, we all learn.
Watch this space.
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Tom Coleman
Hi Tom,
Glad I could help - the worksheets are on my website.
www.thewoodgrafter.com follow the community link at the top of the page and scroll down past the form.
Let me know if you have questions.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Adrian Keeling-Look
Hi Adrian - yes a few people have pointed me to this - it looks really good. I am going to give it a try on the Coffee table build as I don’t want to compromise on the draw design.
If it lives up to the promise (and I am sure it will) yes making a stand-alone video is a good idea.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Hi Toni
I tried to reply to your email, but it bounced for some reason. Anyway, I have now found your comment.
The Incra cheat sheets are now available as part of the YouTube bundle over on the web site. I collated all of my you tube instructional videos into courses, this makes them easier to access and has any supporting material attached to the course. The one you would need is the “Incra Fence Course”.
I do charge a small one off fee to cover the overhead costs of the web site, that gives you access to all the You Tube courses past, present and future. And all support material cheat sheets, plans, calculators etc.
Check out the course https://www.thewoodgrafter.com/courses/the-incra-ls-positioner/
In terms of the original fence, I don’t actual have one. But I am about to change the orientation of my router table and was looking at the Original jig as a way of solving a problem I have (that’s another story).
So yes there is a good chance I will make the video you asked for. I have also learnt a lot since I made the original series so it is due an update.
I haven’t actually seen an instructional video for the jig - they tend to be more review type videos. So definitely a gap.
Hope this helps
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Mark Oddo
Hi Mark, thanks for the feedback.
No the precision height device wouldn’t have helped. It’s to do with the geometry of the router bit. So the material
has to be sized to the height of the router bit after you have set up the fit.
The ultra jig has good reviews - somwoukd dig it out and give it a go, let me know how it goes.
Cheers
Andy
Old Codger
Thanks for your very helpful videos.
I think I noticed a Festool Vs 600 dovetail jig sitting on a bench in one of your videos.
I am recently retired, and looking to build up my workshop to do some woodwork projects.
Do you have any comments on the pros and cons of the INCRA V Festool dovetail jigs, for a serious hobbyist who is on a very steep learning curve. Spokeshaves, gimlets and adzes were on the curriculum when I was a lad, so all the power tools are fascinating.
And could you use the TS 55 system, plus the MFT 3 plus the INCRA system as your only worshop saw? And if you had to get a second saw, would it be a Kapex 120 or the table saw module for the CMS table. I have ordered the CMS route table set.
Thank you
Chris
The Woodgrafter
Hi Chris,
No, you noticed a Leigh DR4 Pro dovetail jig sitting on the bench.
I will be running a video series on the Leigh in the very near future - that will end with a pro's and con's comparison of the Incra & the Leigh.
I use the TS55 and my dual MFT as my primary cutting solution. I then use my Kapex 120 for cross cuts - I didn't invest in the CMS table saw module - although it is good value for money - as I haven't missed a table saw set up.
The next saw related investment for me will be a band saw - as I do miss the ability to re-saw stock in the shop.
If I where to invest again I would do the following
TS55 linked to a dual MFT setup, without the MFT accessory kit - but the Benchdogs.co.uk fence and rail dogs My primary cutting station
CMS with the router module (probably with the OF2200 fitted) and the 1400 as my hand router
Kapex 120
Band saw - (I am looking at some of the Axminster range)
Then the CMS TS55 module - (maybe, it depends if I really miss not having a table saw, and at the moment I don't)
Thank you for your question, I hope I have helped. Please feel free come to back with any follow up.
Regards
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Hi,
It depends how many you want to cut. If you are making a full ‘tall boy’ with five or six drawers, then it makes sense to take the time hit on the set up. If you make that a lot then set time is actually low as it becomes second nature. I can have the cut set up I. The same time as it takes me to Mark out the dovetails.
I agree you get more flexibility over the design by hand, but ultimately it comes down to production runs where time is money, or if you are doing this for pleasure.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
TheFalconJetDriver
Hi, I feel your pain - it is an agonising decision.
I agree with you requiring accuracy in your work and the Incra gives you that in abundance.i wouldn’t be without it on my CMS (and if I had gone down the table saw route - on that as well).
It has its limitations as a joinery machine. BUT inside those limitations it is fabulous and precise.
I see the limitations as..
The templates dictate the size of the stock on your projects - although you can make new templates to suit your stock.
The height of the router bit dictates the thickness of the stock on through dovetails - not an issue if you have a thicknesser in your shop
.
The use of the large right angle fence limits the width of the stock you can use. I.E. I wouldn’t want to cut the dovetails on the front of a blanket box and hang that size of panel on that Incra right angle cross cut fence - however I think I could use the CMS cross cut sled to overcome that limitation.
So think about what you are going to make and use it for.
Small scale joinery is easy - and it’s a great router fence beyond joinery. so if it’s in your budget a no brainier.
Large scale joinery pushes the limits - but you can work around it (I think)
For accurate joinery - the other viable alternative is the Leigh Jig - obviously I am half way through that series. At the end of the series I will be carrying out a comparison.
It may be worth waiting a couple of weeks until the comparison video is out.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+TheFalconJetDriver
Hi and welcome to The Woodgrafter, great to have you. And a huge thank you for taking the time to comment.
Not sure if you have watched the full series on the Incra - but it is a great product and so versatile - it is by far the best fence I have used on a router table - I also think that would translate to the table saw.
In terms of joinery it’s great for box joints and blind dovetails but for through dovetails if you don’t have a way of sizing your stock to the height of the router bit you will struggle.
The learning curve is steep - and it looks complicated when you first approach it - but it does make sense and does become approachable.
If you are looking to make a purchase, and it’s for joinery - I am part way through a series looking at the Leigh jig - when that it is complete I will carry out a side by side ‘so what do we think’ analysis.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Hi,
Thank you for getting in touch, I had a look at that application - looks really interesting. A few folks have mentioned the same thing, but I think you are the first that has actually used it.
That would indeed remove the problem. I will have to put some time aside to have a play.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+befmx31
Hi, yes I used that and it works very well.
The challenge I think is in thicknessing the stock post setup, if you have a jointer/planner then that is not an issue - more a change in workflow.
However, if you buy in your stock ready sized - then it isn’t going to work for you.
Thanks for getting in touch.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
@Crobian Man Thank you, I agree - we all make mistakes for a variety of reasons , and the channel seems to be drifting into an educational direction (that was unexpected, but very exciting) so if everything looks easy (by the power of video editing) then it's not real and folks will get disillusioned when they try it.
So sharing mistakes - for me - is a big part of the process. As my father always said, "The only people who don't make mistake are those who don't do anything. The rest of of try, fail, learn, adjust, try and succeed, that's called experience"
Talk Soon.
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Crobian Man
Hi, that is most definitely true - learning to use the Incra has been a journey of mistakes - you tend to push the mistake through the process, re-do the mistake you have just made and then make another one at the next step.
But, have it cracked now - and that’s what learning and experience is about.
I will probably make a part B to this video at some point - and (fingers crossed) - we can see the right way of doing it.
Talk soon
Andy
Tom LeTourneau
Hate to test your patience, Andy. Learning with some milled 3/4 inch pine. DOVS claims 3/4 inch thickness for this (for through dovetails). Using Whiteside recommended bit, and in order to get doves to fit, I had to raise bit above board thickness by maybe 1/16 inch. So, does this mean I need to find thicker pine and plane to bit height?
Why in the world would the template guide recommend 3/4 for through? I’m afraid I’ll lend up seeking thicker boards than what’s printed for all through dovetails! Shouldn’t Incra reveal this straight out, or write “MINIMUM thickness xx for through dovetails”?
Again, thanks for your help. I’m a tad frustrated. Very rare to find anything thicker than 3/4 in store. Maybe I should plan to stick with 3/4 inch board purchases, plan on 1/2 inch templates, plane them to +1/2 inch, and forego attempting use of those templates calling for 3/4 inch thickness.
Best of health to you and yours in this Covid-19 pandemic!
Tom
The Woodgrafter
Hi Tom,
Sorry for the delay in response but this one made me stop and think.
I have never had the problem you mention - hence the thinking time, here is a random thought process we may need to kick back and to.
The Incra system talks in specifics - so when it talks about 3/4 it means exactly 3/4. So when you are adjusting the fit you are talking about variables outside of the Incra ecosystem - nominal lumber size, seasonal wood movement in the shop, tolerance of the router bit, cup in the board etc.
In my workflow - I use rough sawn stock and my first milling take it over sized. I then set up the Incra height and complete the milling process to final thickness and make the joint. I tend to mill on demand, rather than mill all the parts for the project. I.E. mill the parts for the drawer then make the drawer in the same ‘woodworking session’. That way I eliminate (reduce) wood movement from the equation. I always start shop acclimated stock - I.E. in the shop for around 2 plus weeks before I start and a moisture content of around 12%.
So my stock is never purchased at the final dimension it is always oversized and then milled down.
If you are using pre milled stock, and you purchase a board as milled to 1/2 then that is a ‘nominal’ size - it may have been 1/2 at some point in its life (but no guarantee of that - sometimes it will be milled under size to maximise yield) but it changes due to humidity variances in your shop. So you may find that your stock could be under 1/2 if your shop has a lower humidity than the point of milling. A 1/16 on a 1/2 is around 12% variance so that is well in tolerance for ‘nominal’ thickness.
I am betting this is your situation - everything else you mention looks about right - correct aproach and quality router bit.
Measure your stock and see what it comes out at and let me know.
So in your situation you have three options.
Purchase rough sawn stock and mill yourself - by far my strongest recommendation.
Buy over sized milled stock to allow for that variance.
Use the software I linked to in the previous comments and use the exact measurements of your stock - HOWEVER I still think this may be restricted due to router bit (but not sure).
Let me know if this helps - or give me more details about your stock.
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Hi,
Yes that’s an interesting point, I hadn’t realised that as I tend to mill my own stock for each project. I’ll check out the standard sizes for a deeper look.
The stock sizes was my biggest concern when reviewing this, but fast forward to today I don’t actually find this an issue.
If it helps it was one of those no regret purchase in the shop.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Ken Willis
Hi Ken yes that is a good idea - I have thought about making a longer fence on the right angle fixture with an additional support to increase the overall clamping capacity. No reason why it couldn’t be the full capacity of the fence
Question - as you are using this as a sacrificial fence do you deliberately cut into it as part of your technique (thereby avoiding tear out). Or are you still using a scrap backer board.
Thank you for getting in touch - great tip.
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Michael Lusk
Hi Michael - through dovetails take a bit of work on the Incra, but so long as you can set the thickness of your stock to the bit height then you are in good shape.
Like most things - it becomes second nature when you have wrapped your head around it.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Jason Hubbard
Hi Jason, for through dovetails that would seem to be the case. The stock thickness has to be set to the height of the router bit after you set it up.
Not necessarily a planner thicknesser, a hand plane or drum sander etc. But yes you have to set the thickness after you set up the table.
If you are a woodworker that buys in stock in it’s finished state then that is going to be a problem and most likely a deal breaker.
If you buy in rough sawn stock then it requires a change to your workflow - but not necessarily an extra step. So may be OK.
I am still not convinced I like the constraints that the Incra system imposes on my work.
I have managed to get hold of a second hand Leigh DR4 Pro jig - a bit of love and attention required - so I will create a series on that soon and then do a pros and cons of both.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
+Parafinn Lamp
LoL, Don’t start....... :-)
The Incra fence is very sensitive to errors in setup and In still not a fan of the template defining the stock (just in case I haven’t mentioned it).
I love the fence though and it made short work of the blind dovetails on the bookcase build. Just the through dovetail solution seems clunky and overly complicated - feels like a compromise.
I actually used the split fence function to bring the stock down to width (in the jointer mode) and that workers like a dream, with so much control and accuracy.
I am beginning to think about the design of the tool chest, and I was wondering how well the fence will handle cutting blind dovetails on a large panel. That will be a test.
I would love to get my hands on the Leigh jig, one of our community has just finished a draw unit, and used the Leigh jig for the dovetails - wow they are tight and so precise.
I may keep my eyes open for a secondhand Leigh jig (Or see if so can convince Leigh to lend me one- then we can carry out a real world shoot out.
Talk soon.
Andy
Roger Marrs
Great videos you are putting up. Currently planning a small workshop that will be about the same size as your primary working area (8ft x 14ft) so I'm really glad to find your channel. The LS Positioner with the Wonder fence looked like it was going to be a great combination for both accurate cuts on the MFT and joinery, but I must say that the level of complexity involved in cutting the dovetails really turned me off of the idea. My main workbench will have the 20mm holes on 96mm centers using the UJK parf guide. Instead of the LS Positioner I'm thinking that some Fence Dogs attached to an Incra Flip Fence with the Incra Shop Stop would work out really well. Wondering if you considered the Flip Fence in combination with the Fence Dogs, not that you need it though since you already have the LS Positioner.
The Woodgrafter
+Roger Marrs
Hi Roger, the Incra LS is one of those tools that gets easier with use - it reall does become second nature pretty quickly. Just one hell of a learning curve.
Although I can live with the templates dictating the width of the stock. I struggle a bit with the through dovetails setting the thickness of the stock and having to have some sort of thicknesser to get a good fit. That’s not a problem if you have a thicknesser - but if you buy in ready prepped stock - then it gives you a problem. It is fantastic for blind and box joints.
Yes it does give you precision on the MFT - but in the reall work how often do you need that, you tend to measure once set a stop and then use relative dimensioing on other pieces. So I wouldn’t be buying it just for that.
I am loving the simplicity of dogs on the MFT, you could actually get away with no fence and just use dogs to line things up.
I haven’t used the Incra flip fence - but you can guarantee it will be good quality, they use the same mechanism for positioning the shop stop on the LS - so I do have experience if that side of things. I tend to find it to be fussy to adjust, you lift it out of the teeth and then move it - so not a precise asjustment - once it’s in place it is rock solid. But people do love it - and recommend it.
The other issue I see is in its size - it won’t slide under the Festool rail for thinner stock, so the end of the material is unsupported near the cut. You can put in a sacrifial piece of wood - but then that negates the use of the fence...
Bench Dogs also do a fence that uses flag stops and can be mounted flat or stood up, I haven’t seen it yet - but Bench Dogs are sending me one over for review -so may be worth while waiting until I get that review out - should be within two weeks
Thank you for getting in touch, and glad you like the channel.
Cheers
Andy
t0dger
Excellent job as expected..... your teaching skills are very good...and easy to follow narrative, makes your vids a breeze to understand and learn from...fantastic job...👍🏻
The Woodgrafter
+t0dger Thank you,
I think I will have to make a part B to this one - see if I can actually get a good result.
Cheers
Andy
Tom LeTourneau
Andy (and others), I realize I’m late to the party here. I have all this wonderful kit and am slowly learning how to use it. Andy, I value your knowledge and presentation style; especially useful, because I have some experience on the LS and understand most of your procedure. What is a bit difficult for me is understanding the near ending talk about you correcting your mistakes: Specifically I’d like to get more clarity on the bit height, reference surface procedure and anything one can do to make the pins fit without strain.
If you or your followers can point me to a video or discussion about tips on perfecting the through dovetails on the Positioner, I’m most grateful.
The Woodgrafter
Hi,
Welcome to the party and thank you for taking the time to comment.
I have never seen a detailed discussion on the dovetails either in a forum or in a video - I did revisit both the blind and through dovetails as part of the coffee table series in this video
https://youtu.be/QIkjLFWZScE
So it may give you some more insights - not as in forth but still shows the steps I now use (having spent many hours with the Incra).
It’s a good idea though - so may make a stand-alone video (probably as part of the web site content) looking at perfecting the joints, given that most of the world has now stopped commissioning furniture builds - the business is pretty much static.
Check out the video link I provided and come back with any questions.
Cheers
Andy.
Tom LeTourneau
Andy, You are surely one of the few YOUTUBE artists who take the time to answer comments in such a detailed manner. Thank you, especially because this tool (the LS Positioner) is so expensive; acquiring and using it properly are not simple tasks. I’ve made learning mine a priority. You deserve much success in your business endeavors.
So to begin with,
1. We are limited to a precise thickness of wood in the templates for through dovetails. Ex. If a template lists 3/4 inch for through dovetail, we must plane stock to that dimension. (Sad, because there are very few in the guide).
2. In the setup phase, if I raise the bit listed for a given template to match the stock thickness, make my test cuts, then find that in order to tighten a loose fit, I must raise it a tad higher... doesn’t this negate the bit height to stock thickness requirement? (Hope this ? Is understandable)
3. If in the setup phase I find the exact center cut, shouldn’t this negate the need for worrying about reference surfaces?
The Woodgrafter
Hi Thank you for the kind word. I love the Incra so the learning curve (steep as it is ) is well worth the effort. I am glad you are taking the time.
So your questions
1 - yes, you are limited to the thickness of the wood as stated in the template guide. However - some clever folks have created some software that will allow you to design your own templates and overcome this limitation - have a look at this http://lowrie.github.io/pyRouterJig/
2 - once you have raised the bit you leave it as is and then thickness the stock to that height. Ultimately it is the bit height that dictates the thickness of the stock - without a thicknesser (planer) you will struggle on the through dovetails - the other joints aren’t as critical.
3 - IF you stock is EXACTLY the same width to the thousandth of an inch (or mm) then you are correct, however if you have any deviation then the center may be in the center for one piece, but not another. That variance will show in the final product - as the edges don’t line up. Not a big issue - but the ref faces help remove that. But to be honest I overthought it in the original video - and now I don’t worry about it.
Hope this helps.
Andy
Tom LeTourneau
No joke, when I say you are an outlier, Andy. In all my years on YouTube I’ve never corresponded so generously with an artist. Thank you for your patience. Your thoughts are well taken. I’ve been researching this issue through the blogs and discovered I’m not alone in frustration. The crux of the situation seems to be that many Incra LS users find that when they begin the fitting process by setting the bit height near or equal with the recommended thickness in the templates, adjust the height by moving the bit up for tightness, the bit lends up higher than the stock by too greater a degree for final through dovetail fitness.
In my case With DOVS, I began with the bit at the stock height of 3/4 inch (which was equal to my board thickness exactly). I went next through the fitting process. By the time the two pieces fit snugly, the difference between the board exact thickness (3/4 inch) and my bit height was nearly 1/16 inch higher. I measured this (obviously apparent looking at the stock on the table, flat next to the bit)... and (because I’m OCD) with a caliper: board 49/64 inch, tail 52/64. A difference surely too much to have final workable results.
Lest you think this particular case was an exception, others seem to have this issue. And of course I went through this process with another through dovetail template and with 1/2 inch stock. Similar results. Overall many forum commentators see this as an Incra LS template issue. I reference this as an example (but it seems odd to imagine):
“Incra Comments
LS Positioner Troubleshooting
Through Dovetails
Recently a customer had a problem getting through dovetail to fit correctly. The depth of cut on the template was much smaller than reality. He was using the template 16 (MDOVI) with a 16 mm / 7 deg router bit and 15 mm thick stock. Depth of cut was approx. 15 mm on the template but his test was 16 mm plus.
We tested the depth of cut ourselves, and found the true depth for a tight fit was 16.65 mm, a big difference. Our experience with the templates for half blind dovetails was a difference of less than .5 mm. Something was wrong. Cutting the joint confirmed our fears; the tails and pins were too long by 1.5 mm. Sure, you can plane or sand the ends flush, but this is not the idea from Incra.
OK, in the instructions it says to set the depth of cut, AND THEN, plane the stock to just on or just under the depth of cut – never lower the bit to the thickness of the stock as the joint will be too loose. This would mean using stock approx. 16.6 mm thick for our customer’s project. If you have a thicknesser at home, this will work, but what about stock bought from a shop, at 15 mm thick?
The solution is to ignore that depth of cut setup. Firstly, centre the router bit to the stock (usually step 2). Remember here, to centre the bit, you actually don’t need to have the bit at the final correct height. We centred with the bit at only 10 mm or so. Then set the bit height at just on the thickness of the stock – here, 14.95 mm. Then you can proceed with the 3 cutting stages needed for a through dovetail. When we tried this, the result was a tight fitting joint.
So, half blind dovetails with the LS Positioner are more forgiving regarding stock and router bit height, but through dovetails is easy to produce with the system, with a bit more thought regarding stock selection.”
This is a lengthy comment, but the bottom line is the question: If one has to thickness (plane) the boards to come very close to the bit height (for through dovetails), should the user only need to thickness (plane) the pieces DOWN to match the bit height that allows a good test fit? (My precise 3/4 inch boards were thinner than the needed bit height).
I can just imagine some of your followers shaking their heads at this exchange. Believe me, I can relate. All the best to you. I will persist in learning.
Tom
The Woodgrafter
Oh very interesting, so it is know issue - I guess I never have encountered this because I size my stock to the bit height. I design a project and then say "the stock is about 15mm - what template will work, that looks nice - all use that" then set the bit and then size the stock. So it design;t mater to me if the stock is 15mm or 15.2mm.
Now the approach you mention is interesting on many levels, find the centre, set the bit height to the thickness of the stock and crack on - if that actually works then that is a game changer and a better approach than the recommended Incra one.
I can feel a new video coming up in the very near future to explore this for all of us.
Thats why these kind of debates are so good, we all learn.
Watch this space.
Andy