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411 Tell me your fable A fable Tell me your fable Tell me your…

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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

J Google

52w↑3

I think they key one chooses might actually make a difference. Consider a piece in C major then transpose it to F, G, or F#. It's going to be like the original piece but with many things "flipped".

TLDR: Consider one piece in a given key, and another piece in a key that is a fourth , a fifth, or a tritone away. Like a key in C vs a key in F, G, or F#. I choose these intervals to maximize the "distance" - i.e. at any given point in the piece in F, G, or F#, what you're playing is either a fourth, fifth, or tritone away from what you would have been playing in the key in C major. In the C major piece, a theme might be introduced in a given pitch, and then when that theme returns in the recapitulation, it will be lower pitched by a fifth (going from the dominant to the tonic). But in the key in F, G, or F#, it's the other way around - the second time the theme appears, it is higher pitched, not lower pitched, relative to when the theme first appeared, and higher pitched by a fourth to be precise (again going from dominant to tonic). Essay below:

For example consider sonata form, a piece in say Bb. Suppose the 2nd theme of the piece, when it is first introduced in the exposition, is in the dominant key of F. Now when the recapitulation rolls around, you hear that second theme played again, but in the home key of Bb. Suppose the first time the second theme appears, it is higher pitched in the register. Then, when it appears again in the recapitulation in Bb, it's lower. Going lower pitched could make the theme sound mellower and give a sense of "returning home" after a long journey.

But what if the piece was instead written in F major? Now the first theme when it appears is in C major, and if the composer follows the same choices of pitch they made when the piece was in the key of Bb regarding what is considered too high pitched for a theme, if when the theme was in the "lower octave" when it appears in the recapitulation of the first piece in Bb, and by lower octave I mean the Bb below the F in which the theme appeared for the exposition of the piece in Bb, then by that logic for the new piece in the key of F major, in the exposition when the theme is in the key of C major, then they should choose that "lower octave". I.e. they are playing the theme in the exposition of the piece in F major based on the C that is one note above the Bb around which the theme is focused when it appears in the recapitulation of the piece in Bb major.

And for the piece in F major, when the recapitulation comes around, the theme in F major will be on that "higher F" relative to the C in which the theme first appeared in the exposition, when that theme in the key of C major, the dominant key. Now when the theme reappears, it is higher pitched than when we first heard it. This is not a mellow, soothing return home but perhaps a more jubilant or ecstatic one because of the fact that we return at a higher pitch than that in which we started, as opposed to returning at a lower pitch than that we started with.

(Note lower pitched need not be mellow, higher pitched need not be jubilant, you can interpret it however you want based on the piece, this is just to establish the notion that the way you hear it can be different based on what key)

This leads me to believe that for every piece ever written there may be at least two versions - the original, and one in the key a fourth, fifth, or tritone away in which pitch relationships are "flipped" as discussed above. And other versions may exist too.

The choice of key may also impact the way a composer chooses to develop a melody. Some melodies might sound better in a higher pitch while others might sound better in a lower pitch. If they started the piece in a given key, as they go on writing it they might reach a point they couldn't have foreseen before, but since they're in the key they're in they'll choose to develop the melody in the manner that that key suggests. Whereas if they had started the piece in a more "distant" key (fourth, fifth, or tritone away) it might have developed differently based on where on the keyboard they are when developing the melodies.

Ultimately, it might still not make that much of a difference, and that last paragraph is more speculative, but I think the point above about things being "flipped" in different keys is indisputable since that's just how it has to be (in some cases).

Interested to see what others think. It would be cool if we someday get an AI that can rewrite famous pieces in distant keys. And I don't mean just shifting the whole thing up or down by a given amount. I mean some parts will be upshifted, others downshifted in pitch, exactly the way composers do it when going from the exposition to the recapitulation, ie going from the dominant key back to the home key - you don't just shift everything by a given amount. At some points you're in the "higher" pitch relative to where you started, at others you're in the "lower" pitch. An AI that could choose which parts to shift up or down could rewrite pieces in very different keys. It would sound like the same piece but to a trained ear there would be something "off" about it. You might still prefer the original, you might actually prefer the rewritten piece - or as is perhaps most likely the case you'll find it impossible to choose a favorite. Then how do you choose which to learn to play? Lots of possibilities here.

alger3041

49w↑1

In that regard, the butchery I've heard in two different band transcriptions of the slow movement of Dvorak's New World Symphony.

The middle section should be in the parallel minor of the main sections. But not in the band transcriptions I've heard.

I heard a band transcription of Mussorgsky's Pictures.

It followed all the original keys right through until we got to the Great Gate of Kiev. That is in E Flat Major, which one would naturally assume would be perfect for band. No - the movement was transposed to D Flat Major for no conceivable reason.

My feelings: I don't mind an entire work being transposed, provided that the same transposition is carried through.

If you can't do it right, then simply don't do it.

All comments from YouTube:

BentonHess

1y↑416

And BTW, the first scale I learned on the piano was not C Major, but rather, B Major, because it utilizes all the black keys and sits under the hand so perfectly. Almost all Russian pedagogues begin with B Major. C Major is one of the most difficult scales to play…with all white keys…like a blizzard…no landmarks to tell you where you are.

RubenHogenhout

1y↑43

B is easier for the hand. But with C you can very easy explain the hole hole half hole hole hole half principle of the major key and from there out learn very easy all the keys. The for example F, Bes, Es, As, Des,Ges Start all the time on the new moll and get every key one moll more till you got them all. And then G, D, A, E, B, Fis Every new cross on your fourth vinger till you got all the black keys. Put fourth to trird and the thump is on you next key with one cross more.

Denny Smith

1y↑9

@RubenHogenhout Well, yes, if pedagogy is our only consideration. But after the 24 keys and modes are understood, C becomes the most excruciatingly boring of all keys, I think. I fell in love with 10 keys to the exclusion of all others: C#, Eb, F#, Bb and B (Maj + min for each tone).

Denny Smith

1y↑6

I long dismissed the importance of choosing a key, thinking they're all just transpositions of equivalence, but just recently began to notice my own preferences; so I really appreciate the topic addressed here.
It does seem that register is at least as important as key signature. I am not a fan of strained tenors and sopranos reaching for the stars when street lamps are perhaps their more realistic goal.
There's nothing like the power of a full orchestra with every instrument given an engaging line and entire sections humming in the vigor of their midrange. Schumann's Piano Concerto is a type specimen, as are Brahms' Song of Destiny and Sibelius' Symphony #5.
I call it the power of chestnut brown, especially in my favorite key, Eb major. And wouldn't you know--that's the key Beethoven chose for "Eroica.," the watershed moment of his ascendancy, the "Apres le deluge" of tonality, the landmark pivot between Classical and Romantic eras, the apex of symphonic form, the day Beethoven left Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Cervantes and Rembrandt in the dust (they were never close competition; however, Beethoven is still picking bugs out of his teeth after a trip to Leipzig left him hopelessly behind some well-fed, Engel aus der Hölle, who was composing so loud even Ludwig could hear the eight-voice, inverted, retrograde polyphony with a theme that grew progressively dazzling through 24 keys, all while teaching his kids how to fool Euler with a superior proof if they should ever meet him. This guy swung through inner-voice sublimity like an Olympic gymnast plays hopscotch.(
And on the strength of that cadence, I rest my Picardy Third.

Noxal

1y↑17

I always felt like the landmarks for C major are the black notes you're not using.

David Lovell

1y↑1

As a keen amateur guitarist, I have always favoured the vowel keys. Thanks for a wonderful video… I really appreciate your lucid and good humoured style.

17 More Replies...

RobotSpider

1y↑10

The idea of "colors" associated with a key is a manifestation of synesthesia. Having met several people with different forms of synesthesia, it's fascinating and, for people that have it, an amazing way to view the world. It gives them a visual reference for which to remember music, poetry, and other non-visual media.

xZyrux

1y↑66

An important factor is that for the piano, the equal temperament where all halftones are the same distance from each other didn't exist back then. The "well tempered" tuning allowed more keys to be played without too much distortion, but each key had slightly different intervals in terms of HZ. Thus it makes sense for barrock composers to give each key a different character.

Peter Anon

1y↑4

laughs in baroque

Yosef Robinson

49w↑1

In baroque music, a tendency that I notice is for compositions in a given key to actually be played a half-tone lower. For example, a concerto or chorus in D major (as part of the title) might actually be played in D-flat/C-sharp major.

Cruce Entertainment

1y↑16

I think Chopin chose keys based on how the hands could access the notes, but he also wrote piano pieces to help people learn to play piano, so he wrote in a wide variety of keys for that purpose too.

Late

1y↑162

As a composer, I can confirm that the instruments I'm using in a piece when choosing a key is an important factor, as it should be. D flat is not a good choice of key for clarinet because the base note of the scale is barely out of its reach. The register is an important factor too. I happen to also have perfect pitch and to me, keys just sound different and convey different moods.

JSMusic

1y↑1

I'm currently writing something for an instrument that has a range from C4 to C6, and I think C is one of the worst keys, because there's only one C in the range that you can approach from both above and below. I think D or E still works better than A or B though (like F or G instead of D♭ or C for the clarinet), because going just below the tonic to the lowest notes and then back up a note or two is much better than having to go six or seven notes up to hit the nearest tonic.

Carlos Mendoza

1y↑5

That last bit happens to everybody, and is widely talk in the circles of baroque music playing. It's a different colour and character for every tonality lol

Karol C.P.M.

1y↑4

I'm surprised no one commented that certain keys are chosen because the composer heard a musical idea in that "original key". Alma Deutscher a 21st century composer develops musical ideas in their original key, until later to transpose melodies if necessary for opera voices.

TheDeadOfNight37

1y↑1

I feel the same, keys definitely have their own distinct feelings so it's really hard to get a great range of all those emotions when an instrument is limited in what it can play
That's why I like adding in plenty of chromaticism and borrowed chords where I can, otherwise everything on a particular instrument starts to sound the same

JSMusic

1y↑4

@Karol C.P.M. That's definitely a part of it for me. I'll have a melody just pop into my head sometimes and hum it into a voice recorder, having no idea what the notes are or what key it's in, and usually just keep it in that original key unless there's a good reason to change it.

11 More Replies...

The Kokomo Kid

1y↑19

A few thoughts:

- Guitar is barely relevant to the discussion, but some keys on guitar take on a different feel because the most common ways to finger the tonic chord represent different chord inversions. I think of this especially in the key of D, where the third is the highest note and lends a sweetness to the key. A and E use 5 or 6 strings with only one third hidden in the middle, which is easy to mute out and leave you with an open 5th, power-chord harmony. It's also easy to mute the whole chord and get a nice booming chop in those keys, giving you different rhythmic ideas. A and E also have an open string that gives you a bluesy b7, whereas the open strings in G and C are all part of the major scale. The kind of songs that you pair with these keys are very different because of these mechanical reasons.
- Vocal songs in different keys might tend toward different melodic shapes. If the singer has one comfortable octave where they will spend most of the song, then most of the song will be between 1 and 8 if the song is in one key, or between 5 and 12 in another key. This could give different keys an objectively different quality.
- D is actually blue.

Lighthoof The Game

1y↑62

As a violinist, I wanna add that D is a great key because there are so many opportunities for ringing tones—playing a note that shares a name with an open string makes the open string ring sympathetically. The instrument just sounds more resonant in some keys!

little boy

1y↑2

As a cellist, I prefer Bb

little boy

Specifically G minor or C dorian

Pavel Kozák

1y↑2

The best case of co-ringing is this, which is the by-strin A. This sensitive sounding is typical for the Art Nouveau. Mainly the White Flowers (květiny bílé) in Dvořák's Water Nymph (I think, C dur).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v3dSsDkJrU

ilovehomies

1y↑3

d minor W

7 More Replies...

Haim Zamir

1y↑33

Scriabin simply had synesthesia, so his color coding was quite concrete. Many of us have strange cross associations between senses.

Terry P

1y↑1

Pianist Helene Grimaud experiences the same visualization of harmonic frequencies.

Stephan Brunker

1y↑43

I am not the first to comment that, but I can add a few thoughts: The history of temperament is very important here. And the easiest way to experience it is if you tune your piano yourself - and interestingly, older temperaments are easier to tune. I have tuned my piano to Kirnberger II, where the comma is mostly spread over D-A-E and you have a lot of pure fifths and in C major also the pure third. Playing with pure fifths is really a different story. And as I researched, I found out that a lot of tuners today still tune not exactly equal, with a slight preference to some keys. And I suppose that a lot of the instruments out there really aren't exactly equal.

Érico Schmitt

1y↑5

Indeed acoustic instruments are not equal tempered. All woodwinds will have some notes that are higher or lower, besides the register differences. Sometimes by (bad) design, sometimes by (lack of) fine adjustment of key work. Although I'm a cellist, I've played many other instruments through the years, and currently giving oboe a try. Brass instruments still follow the harmonic series and the tuning of each valve/rotor has to compromise some notes. String instruments will resonate differently when a note you play matches the harmonics of a lower open string, so players will often learn and fall on those overtones while playing. And when playing double stop most skilled musicians will play just thirds and just sixths. And guitars are always out of tune! :D
Only electronic instruments can truly be equal - not that this is a good thing anyway

Stephan Brunker

1y↑1

@Érico Schmitt Thank you for the information!

T. Hall

Brass players have to pay attention to the harmonic series and purity of harmony. For example, if two trumpets are playing a major third apart and use equal-tempered tuning it sounds...let's just say "bad". We generally have to tune using the harmonic series and indeed a lot of pro brass players will study scores and determine chord position, then adjust tuning accordingly. Sometimes we have to play out of tune in order to play in tune.

I'm sure other instrumentalists have to do this as well.

J Google

52w↑3

Sehyung Kim

1y↑8

That's a great clarifying video! However, it should be understood that this applies to music from the Romantic era. As for before that, composers preferred certain keys not only for the reasons mentioned in the video, but also because of the different temperaments. Before the invention of the Well Temperament (not to be confused with the Equal Temperament), each tonality sounded different due to the fact that some intervals were narrower or wider.

David Jordan

1y↑6

I think key is most important when utilizing non-equal temperaments. Bach's famous Well-Tempered Clavier is the classic demonstration of this, as he shows the type of piece that is best suited for each of the keys. I think music lost a lot when we eliminated key color.

Anthon Svensson

1y↑2

I think keys might often be used to hommage to other works as well. Such as our seeing Eb major being a heroic key thanks to Beethoven's Eroica symphony. For me personally the choice has always been rather arbitrary. Just picking a key you feel like and finding ways to make it work is a part of the creative process.

Justin Slaughter

1y↑3

Instruments and pitch definitely play a huge role. When pieces are transcribed to concert band, the key is often changed to fix the concert band better than strings.

alger3041

49w↑1

Nathaniel Kroeger

1y↑21

To add to point 1 (and to a certain extent, 2) it's also the physical limitations of the instrument. Beethoven wrote the Apassionata sonata in F minor specifically because F was the lowest note on the keyboard at the time, and that low F gets used repeatedly throughout the sonata.

Chopinzee613--Salon-Style Classical Piano

1y↑27

Maybe it's in the next 5 videos, but a very important factor is the (comfortable) RANGE of the particular instruments or voices a composer has in mind for (part of) a piece of music. Then there's also the ease of reading the score, which diminishes the more flats and sharps you have. (Except for Liszt, of course, who delights in doing such things as switching from Gb major to F# major in the middle of a piece, seemingly just to infuriate the pianist.)

Tarantula R

Kinda a bad example, considering the two keys use the same notes labeled differently… but I get the point :)

Chopinzee613--Salon-Style Classical Piano

47w↑1

@Tarantula R No, it's a good example, for just the reason you said: The notes are exactly the same, but Gb has only 5 accidentals, whereas F# has 6, so it's harder to read!

Graham Nancledra

42w

You got me in two seconds with the opening of the St John Passion. Bach did something wonderful that even gets this unbelievers heart a flutter and the tears well up in my with that wonderful music. The turmoil in that opening chorus with the wailing oboes, almost crying grabs me everytime. something that Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Bruckner, Puccini, Berlioz and the other romantics and modernists can NEVER do.

The Key? Who cares. The music says it all.

uazuazu

1y↑16

Each instrument has a range of notes it can play, so if you put the same tune in a different key, maybe that instrument could no longer play it and you'd have to change your tune. Same for the choir. Each of Treble, Alto, Tenor and Bass have a fixed range of notes that they can comfortably sing, and changing the key could mean completely reharmonising everything. Also some early instruments (bugle, some trumpets) can only play open notes, i.e. harmonics. So if you're using those instruments, you have to fit to the single key they can play in. Also if you choose some crazy key with loads of sharps or flats, or really inconvenient or awkward to play on certain instruments, the players will really hate you. So the key is a massive compromise between loads of factors.

T. Hall

Historically, trumpet and horn players got around key changes by using crooks to change the fundamental pitch of their instruments, allowing access to different harmonic series that match the current key of the music. This is the origin of trumpet and horn being transposing instruments, i.e., the written music is transposed to match the instrument rather than the music being written to match actual concert pitch.

Der Weg der Göttin

1y↑3

Very important as well is to notice that tuning variated a lot during the centuries and the today's "well tempered" doesn't even match the Bach's well tempered. So actually there is a bit more to this subject than just having C as harmonical home base and labeling all keys equally. Even on a well tempered piano E Flat minor sounds different, feels different, than e.g. e minor.

Some ofMyVideos

1y↑3

Enjoyed the video thanks. I think C being “the first” scale applies primarily to the piano which for some reason is color coded to it. AFAIK Violin beginners start with D and G major as those are easier to play in terms of finger positions.

Z.A.

1y↑3

Great video, nice to see someone that actual knows some basics talk about this subject. Be noted though that Beethoven's first piano concerto isn't actually his first piano concerto, he composed the second one first.

Graham L

1y↑6

I'm pleased to hear the speaker agree that there is no "specific character" to different keys in the era of equal temperament. Yet even here in the comments we see people claiming that there is. Acoustically all the keys are constructed the same.
That is why historically considered productions are so lively and enlightening -- with unequal temperament comes varied interval frequencies, and therefore different key characters.

cimbalok

1y↑2

Interesting. I'm a Chopin junkie and I tallied the number of pieces he wrote in each key. For the majors the most he wrote was in A-flat, 4 flats. For the minors, C# minor, 4 sharps. Great subject, please explore further. Thanks for posting.

Suhaib Kiani

1y↑1

One important point is that in pythogrean / just intonation, the scale changes as you shift the root note. Eg DMinor and C minor will sound slightly different

Der Weg der Göttin

1y↑4

As a composer and violinist I can confirm some of the informations, but there are some half true phrases as well (my first scale was definitly not C, and due to my instrument I even thought a lot in D, which I felt for a very long time as my home key). Any way, good job. Be careful with judging personal feeling on pitches. It's a huge topic. Especially because we live in a vibration based universe and pretty much everything underlies the laws of vibration. One of the most important is a very basic one: resonance. So as we vibrate and there is no way NOT to resonate, pitch is not at all irrelevant.

Frank

An important thing that wasn't quite discussed here: many instruments, especially woodwinds, are much harder to play in pitch the further away from their "tonal center" you get. This is why most wind orchestra pieces tend to be written in keys around B flat and E flat. Standard wind orchestra instrumentation has a lot of instruments in B flat and E flat (clarinets, trumpets, saxophones), so the more you get towards scales in sharps, the more problematic intonation becomes, especially for non-professional ensembles. Having a wind orchestra play in pitch in E Major is quite a challenge.

Zhihuang Xu

1y↑27

"Composers always seem to avoid B"

I've heard someone also came up with this independently. So personally, the first "grand" piece by myself would be a piano sonata in B.
Btw Chopin has many noctunes in B but he's not in the list

Phetorics

1y↑4

It’s sad! B is such a sweet key, albeit difficult for string instruments.

JSMusic

1y↑16

Chopin said B was the best key for the piano. Sits better under the hands and makes scales easier and smoother to play, and the easiest to play by feel without looking at the keys. He also said C was the worst key, for the opposite reasons.

Rainy Day

1y↑6

B minor on the other hand is used incredibly often

JSMusic

1y↑1

@Rainy Day Some keys are like that. Like C♯ minor is pretty common, but it's parallel major would almost always be spelled as D♭.

Karol C.P.M.

@Rainy Day The finale to Stravinsky's Firebird was written in B Major, so beautiful.

4 More Replies...

Pavel Kozák

1y↑1

I believe that between a given pitch (in the written notes) and the permanent memory called "the absolute ear" there is a sediment of many compositions we have heard. Therefore, if we have an inspiration of a motive, we should - if we can manage two things at once? - to write it down, or better: to sing it into a dictaphone, and then to investigate which pitch was the first. Since I consider the pitch of an inspiration to be part of the inspiration. That due to the wide sediment in our soul, by choosing just THIS pitch (irrationally, yet exactly) we include ourselves among all the history.

Say, if you have a Db inspiration, there can be something of Janáček. In the same time if you are usually depressed of h-minor, nothing would help Bach's flute suite with Badinerie, or even to The cello concert...

I do believe that pastoral is F: it is a white-civilizational act of faith. On the other hand I do not understand Janáček's syncretic synaesthesia of G dur - green tree, C dur - white linen. These I consider fully subjective.

There can be also a synaesthesia which is a ""mixed colours behind a rich-chromatical music". It is not specified concerning the pitches, yet provoked by the musical chromatism: the colour atmosphere of the musical chromatism.

Pieter Duindam

1y↑14

I think it also has something to do with the fact that almost every composer was a pianist, because every key does sound unique on the piano.

Asad Ali

That's very dim of composers.

Max Xiong

1y↑3

@Asad Ali Every key sounds different on most instruments due to resonance, etc
However keyboard instruments didn't use equal temperament back then so the scales were mathematically actual different.l

zulby09

1y↑1

I personally found the keys C minor and F minor tonally pleasing to my ears. However, the keys C Major and A minor are the easiest to learn on both the piano and the guitar as these keys are the stepping stones to scale(so to speak) other keys

Leopold Linhart

1y↑2

I have a fifth suggestion: With most instruments, the distances in frequency between the twelve tones are not equally distributed, what would be a factor of square root of 12. With a violin, you can play infinite pitches within one octave, but with e.g. a flute, you are restricted to what the harmonics of the tube allow, and which is a more pleasant sound than the strict srqrt(12) tuning. Even pianos are pitched in the "natural" way. There are pianists who play on different pianos with different tuning, regarding to he scale of the piece. Bach used the piccolo flutes for the expression of something demonic, their F is very sharp, almost a F#. In the cycle of fifths the dissonances to C major increases with the distance to C. So, a piano tuned in "natural" C major, but playing in E major is very far from the "harmonic" sound, and as I heard Smetana for example used this to express transcendence and mysticism. In some orchestras the vioiines are tuned to say 12 cents sharp, which gives them brilliance and tenor, and an orchestra is a sum of very different instruments with therefore slight dissonances, and to experiment with different keys is interesting. I have to excuse my poor English, but hopefully my thoughts are understandable :-).

Shipi

wow interesting !

Caters Carrots

1y↑32

That third one really relates to me cause I do feel different characters in different keys. And that’s even in equal temperament.

Pixel Builder

⁸

DeflatingAtheism

1y↑8

Agreed. Saying that it's unimportant that a piece is written in E or F is like saying it's unimportant that an abstract painting is painted in greens rather than blues. One deals with frequencies in the audio spectrum, one deals with frequencies in the visual spectrum, and I don't see why one should have inherent affective associations and the other shouldn't.

Caters Carrots

1y↑4

@DeflatingAtheism Exactly. Why should colors have associations, but keys not have anything associated with them? What’s wrong with me associating F major with flowing water or C minor with the entire emotional spectrum or D major with regal majesty? I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Max Xiong

1y↑1

@DeflatingAtheism It's not the actual key but the position on the instruments that really matter. Often when a piece is arranged for a different instrument it will be transposed. For example Mozart's oboe concerto in C was adapted to the flute concerto in D. This is why in modern songs the key is usually not a point that is discussed much since it would be chosen to fit the singer's register break.

DeflatingAtheism

1y↑2

@Max Xiong Oh, I’m well aware of this. There’s a reason Bach violin pieces that heavily use triple and quadruple stops are heavily weighted towards the keys of G or D major or minor. But art has always been about balancing countervailing considerations, and in spite of this, a correlation between keys and affects is still discernible.

I think of the Adagio of Beethoven’s 9th, where he continually modulates from Bb to the key of D minor, to use the open strings of the intro to the first movement. I suspect the necessity of modulating between these two keys became part of the musical grammar of the piece (it would be much more conventional to have F or A major as the antipodal key to a piece in D minor,) and Beethoven’s mastery lies in taking something necessary and making it seem like the optimal artistic choice.

2 More Replies...

Dave Marney

1y↑1

A very interesting essay! In my experience as a pianist, I would say there is absolutely a sonic difference between a piece played in Db vs. D natural, for example. Now, that difference may in fact just be due to the "general bias", as you are saying -- the bias was literally built into the very mechanics that our instrument makers created to produce the sound of our instruments.

Érico Schmitt

Have you heard of the Janko piano? All keys have the same fingering.

Rik77

Yep, flutes used to be built with d major as its basic scale, so it tended to sound best in that key if you want a bright loud sound. Alternatively if you want a more introspective gentler sound you could use f major, c major or B-flat major but those are less common for flute music.

TheGeffde

Affects for keys started in the baroque era, before the 19th century and before equal temperament was a thing. Also, for instance, Messiaen, had synesthesia and truly did experience different notes and keys as different colors and that influenced what and how he composed.

sifridbassoon

1y↑2

This subject is huge. And there are lots of reasons composers chose certain keys, mostly of them having to do with vaguries of the different instruments involved as well as personal preferences. Any wind player who plays in both bands and orchestras knows that orchestras like # keys while bands like b keys. Chopin loved c# minor. Looking forward to you next videos

Dr. A. W.

Saint-Saens' Third Symphony (The Organ Symphony) was conceived in B minor, but he wrote, "this devil of a symphony has risen a half-tone; it did not want to remain in B minor: it is now in C minor." I strongly suspect that by raising the key of the piece a half step, the tonic would correspond to the lowest pitch on the organ, nearly an octave lower than the lowest B on the organ. At 16 Hz, you won't hear the fundamental of that low C, but you will certainly FEEL it.

Darius Sarrafi

Here are a couple more reasons:
(1) Personal Physiology: I think some musicians' ears resonate differently to the frequencies of the tones so they favor a key more (this could fall under personal prejudice)
(2) Sometimes picking a different key reveals a different topography of the keyboard which will lead to new melodic/harmonic "finds"

Krellie

Wasn't it back in the days a thing that the further the key was from C (I think) Major the more valse it was so that keys actually made a difference which is solved on today's instruments? Adam Neely described this in his Which key is the saddest? video. This theory makes it more subjective than objective right (and maybe more important: actually different).

Also, Chopin wrote quite some pieces in B Major because it fits the hand really well on the piano

smb12321

1y↑2

In piano it is sometimes advantageous to the piece. Thinking of Chopin Prelude #16 B♭Minor or the 18th F Minor or Rachmaninoff's Prelude No 9 E♭ Minor). Certain aspects of these are "easier" in certain keys - runs, jumps, crossings, chromatic pieces, speed, etc

As for "favorites", entirely subjective. B♭Minor, G ♯ Minor, C ♯ Major and D♭Major are favorites probably because they are frequently used by Rach, Chopin and other Romantic composers.

Nathaniel Kroeger

1y↑1

Yes! I think Chopin was one of the people that understood that the most - a lot of his music just "fits" under your hand better than that of other piano composers

Peter McMurray

1y↑3

Thank you an excellent review. I always have in mind a remark by a Sax teacher "why do you often find you are playing C# over the guitarist's favourite key of A or E. Also why is so much jazz written in the flat keys - Bb aerophones perhaps 🙂

Wichard Beenken

1y↑21

It’s the Pythagorean comma that’s make the difference between keys. Since this fallacy in harmonics, after the introduction of the well tempered tuning, only C major was clear. All the other keys have a slightly different temperament depending on how far away their scale is from C major. Since this effects the intervals within the scale only, the absolute pitch doesn’t matter, at least for the normal listener without absolute pitch. Nevertheless, (s)he will hear the differences in the intervals and interpret them even unconsciously like different moods, though not as drastic as between major and minor. This by the way is also the reason why in music before Bach‘s era, the key was nearly of no importance. The musicians always take the scale with the best harmonics independent of the starting pitch. For the organ this was not possible and thus the absolute pitch and key came into play. Interestingly, with the introduction of the equal temperament, the key became less important, as you may see in the key distribution pattern of the late 19th century composers. In the 20th century the key-based harmonic system collapsed in the Twelve-tone technique by Schönberg.

Lars Johansson

1y↑30

Strange pronunciation of Beethoven... "Bayhoven".

There is also an older and very important explanation from the baroque, when the scale wasn't perfectly tempered as today. Before 1720 there was certain keys that simply wasn't usable because the intervals sounded too harsh. And therefore different keys had their own sound and flavor. Matheson describes them in his book "Das neueröffnete Orchester".
There characteristics lived on for certainly 100 years in what keys would be good to fit different kinds of music.

JSMusic

1y↑17

He didn't just leave out the T; he pronounced it as a glottal stop. It's quite common in the UK.

Rafex Rafexowski

1y↑7

This is slightly wrong, or at least misleading. There is nothing inherently "perfect" about equal temperament. It's just one of the many ways of tuning an instrument. It was known since the renaissance, but only started to be used in the 20th century because it was adopted by the classical avant-garde as perfect for atonality.
Also there is another misconception that seems to be shown in this comment. The meantone temperaments (which are the temperaments that sacrifice some keys to make others better than equal temperament) were not universally used in the baroque and didn't just suddenly go extinct in 1720. In the late batoque most composers would adopt the new well temperaments (temperaments that allow playing in all keys and add "key color" with some keys better than equal temperament and some worse, but all sounding slightly differently). Those well temperaments would be used by most until the 20th century, with many composers making their own tunings that would suit their music best. For example Beethoven thought that Eb major sounded heroic, and that's why most of his grand works are in that key or its relative minor. It's also not like meantone wasn't used in the classical era, Mozart famously used 1/6-comma meantone, which is slightly worse than the baroque 1/4-comma meantone but only really sacrifices one key (although Mozart did also use well temperaments).
You also seem to conflate meantone and well temperament into one tuning. No, meantones did not have key color. Usually around 6 keys were amazingly beatiful, 2 were pretty bad but playable and 4 were unusable, but all of the beatiful ones sounded the same. They are also shown as outdated and their only trait being that they sacrifice some keys. This is not the case, music in 1/4-comma meantone is more beatiful, it's just more limiting for the composer.

Roger Kearns

1y↑3

@JSMusic
Glo'aw stop, tha's ri', ma'e.

profsmog

1y↑3

The reason for composers rarely using b lies with the old tuning system. Baroque pianos were simply not tuned to play in that key. It had the worst fifth and was therefore avoided. The jarring dissonances caused by this also lead to b minor being heavily associated with death and is was hence reserved for that purpose and used sparingly. This tradition of connotation/prejudice then influenced later generations of composers even though they had the means to realize it seemlessly.

Martin H

Is baroque piano the same as baroque bicycle?

profsmog

@Martin H what???

pedzsan

1y↑1

You mentioned Equal temperament. When did it come into fashion? And what was in fashion before? Could it be that that change needs to be understood before understanding why particular keys are preferred by various composers (and why A is different today than it was long ago)?

Flames in the Attic

Not just classical, contemporary pop/rock also use Cmaj a lot of the time with Cmaj, Dmaj, Gmaj, Amaj, Emaj being most common. Obviously this is Cmaj from the piano white keys, then all the open strings on a guitar are related to the other scales. Like you mentioned at the end Bmaj is not very popular at 19th place.

Jon B

Interesting topic. I write in whatever key comes into my head for any melody, and modulate to wherever the music takes me. Sometimes transposition works, but more often than not it just doesn't feel right.

topquark22

Different keys had different intervals, hence flavours, prior to the advent of equal temperament. (See "Affective key characteristics" article by Christian Schubart.) Not much of this applies these days, sadly. It also made a big difference in the 1930s when standard tuning was changed from A432 to A440, a jarring decision that should be reversed!

Colin Munro

1y↑1

Keys don't matter so much as modes, and there aren't just 2 modes. There are several, each with unique characteristics and all playable in at least 7 different root notes.

Andrew Schaug

I think another factor for 3 is that many - though far from all - composers had absolute/perfect pitch, and built associations with particular noted that most of us do not and in fact cannot. Scriabin also had colour-tone synaesthesia, and arrogantly assumed this was objective.

Lizzie's Music Making

Generally, the more skilled the players you're writing for, the more freedom you have with regards to key.

Andrew Paddock

I read somewhere that Chopin, when teaching piano, always preferred to start with B major as he felt the hand naturally and easily played the key, whereas C major was reserved for more advanced level as it is more difficult to play evenly and also lacks the pattern of the black keys that can help guide a musician's hands without looking down. Personally, I'm inclined to agree. B is such an easy key on the hands. Chopin was quite fond of other keys that used the black keys prominently, especially A-flat, B, C# minor, and D-flat. Shostakovich's string quartets were all over the circle of fifths, but he got most of the "distant" keys in. I love his string quartets!

Stream of Consciousness

Interesting that the Violin Strings G D A E are the reverse of the bottom four on the Guitar E A D G.
I learned from a MelBay Book and the first scale was C but the first little piece it used to get your fingers going was in G or at least the few notes it had contained a F#.

A few have mentioned it, the change from the "well tempered" division of the Octave to "equal tempered" changed everything, composers work from prior to that is not played right on modern instruments. It also made fretted instruments possible or at least more functional and versatile. And the ability to change keys has added a lot of options and Dynamics to composing Music.
G seems to be the favorite Key of Rock Guitarists, with A and E a distant second. I love the Cm scale, not sure if it's because there are really no open strings (only two, the D And G, the E, A, B, and e are not in the scale) so it sounds "exotic" compared to all the songs I learned prior which were mostly in Keys with Sharps.

disklamer

Thanks for debunking the superstitions. All in all, orchestral timbre is a valid phenomenon, ie. different keys sound different in an orchestra due to the base tones, overtones and resonances of all the different instruments. Which in turn leads people to qualify each key because of the sonic properties in the real world.

TenorCantusFirmus

1y↑1

In thumbnail - Beethoven, whose choose was just simply: 50% times, C Minor!

(Just was joking...)

I anyway like a lot modal composition, which also expands the choice not only to a key/tonal centre, but also to lots of scales: twelve modes (Glarean's traditional "Dodekachordon") multiplied by twelve possible keys also sounds very nice, it's a perfect square.

Lizzie's Music Making

I've noticed that bands have a preference for flat keys, while orchestras and other things with strings seem to prefer sharps. I assume that this is because a lot of band instruments have home keys with flats (trumpet in Bb alto sax in Eb, clarinet in Bb etc etc.) while violins, for example are in G (1 sharp). Therefore a lot of band instruments are easier to play in flat keys, and most especially music for beginner and junior bands tends to be written in them. Waay too much in Bb and Eb.

Meanwhile recorder players like F major, C major, G major and Bb major because of fewer forked fingerings. And because high C# (two octaves and a semitone up from the bottom note) on C recorders and high F# on F recorders doesn't work properly and is really annoying to get.

And lever harpists love C major. And then G major, D major and F major. Less lever flipping if you've got levers, and less retuning the harp if you haven't.

richardlbowles

Surely, it's worth mentioning that some keys are constrained by what instruments are available. Bach could only write his Brandenburg concertos in certain keys because they contain trumpet parts, and trumpets in the olden days didn't have valves. Clarinets are manufactured in A, or in B-flat (i.e. their equivalent of "open strings" are those notes), so most clarinet concertoes tend to be in those keys or closely related ones etc.

theoriemeister

1y↑1

But the horns and trumpets did have crooks, which changed the fundamental pitch of the instrument.

Vector Graphics

I usually just use C major and A minor since those are the notes that are highlighted on my music making software.

Philip Stapert

D major is my favorite key to sing in. Middle C is right in the middle of my rather clunky passaggio. I can choose to sing it in chest voice, head voice, or falsetto, and none is ideal. In D I can sing B in chest voice and C# in head voice, and skip over C.

VIZ

51w

Most great composers had/have perfect (absolute) pitch - so they “hear” the entire composition in their minds a certain way in a certain key, and any other key just sounds “wrong”.

bshuwarg

This is something I have wondered about for a long time. Thank you so much!

Wilk - Krzemiński Composer

Very interesting video, thank you for explaining this to us. :)

Lawrence Taylor

1y↑6

I just started being in music theory after my retirement. What a fascinating analysis. Merci.

Paco R Villar

Actually, there is a direct and objective correspondence between keys and colors. Both are vibrations and you can relate those colors that are multiples of certain keys.

ArielAr

1y↑1

Is it possible that many composers know that most musicians aren't precisely "happy" reading scores with 5,6 or even 7 accidentals in the key ?

sunjack

52w

- it’s a compromise to have equal temperament in all 12 keys - different keys have subtle differences internally between intervals. You just can’t get perfect mathematical divisions across them all. Some are “darker” or “brighter” or just different. That’s why there are so many different temperaments. It’s not some random thing composers do…

MICHAEL GAURNIER

1y↑1

Thank you for the video. I totally disagree with keys not having particular feelings. As I play my instruments, there is absolutely very specific moods to certain keys. Obviously the timbre of the particular instrument has a lot to do with that but none the less, keys have strong shades of moods.

JJ

Completely agree. Just play in B minor vs Eb minor. Completely different mood.

thexalon

One other practical consideration here just has to be the ease of writing down the tune. A few accidentals here and there are one thing, a bunch of double-sharps or double-flats make things a lot more confusing.

Tirebiter

In America The 1812 overture became a hit in the 1960s, and one of the most well known pieces of classical music...why?...It was used in a popular tv commercial. The words to the jingle were "This is the cereal that shot from guns"

Saul A. Fantauzzi

1y↑1

The background music at the beginning of this video: “Herr Unser Herrscher” Bach’s St. John Passion BWV 245. Absolutely amazing and incredible opening. Thanks

Érico Schmitt

1y↑1

Thanks for the info, I was wondering what that was.

Sourjya Banerjee

1y↑5

You chose the best videos available for Mozart’s Requiem and Don Giovanni ❤

Phil Mann

1y↑4

We have it on good authority (Tufnel) that "D minor is the saddest of all keys." On a serious note (pun intended) my suspicion is that Chopin and others wrote so many piano pieces in sharp or flat keys (B major excepted) because most pianists find the black keys physically easier and more comfortable to play than just white keys. I may be wrong, but as a somewhat proficient, but by no means expert amateur pianist, I've always found this the case. (And D minor, which uses only the white keys, is easy and fun to mess around with, but actually not too comfortable to play.)

soaringvulture

The last time I looked at D minor there was a B flat in there.

Phil Mann

@soaringvulture Phryigian and Aeolian, true, but not Dorian, which is what I meant and is easiest to visualize and sounds good, but is uncomfortable to play.

Phil Mann

But on further thought, each key perhaps is unique. As a young keyboardist and confirmed Doors fan, "Light My Fire" was clearly played with A flat minor to F natural minor. This complicated the fingering, but, nevertheless, was what sounded right. Although this was apparent and obvious to a teen-aged amateur like me, it apparently required a credentialed professional to "discover" decades later that the original recording as released in '67 somehow ended up a half step flat. Still today, and even though the song has be re-released with the intended "proper" intonation (i.e., A minor to F sharp minor) I still prefer the original intonation as released in '67, and can instantly hear the difference. Maybe keys are unique after all.

Jan Post

Another reason for the choice of a key can be that a composition is written specifically for a hymn/(church)song, which obviously already has a key of itself, or at least still must stay in the reach of the average human voice.

HansKuhlmann

Vivaldi chose for his winter concerto f minor, because this sounds rather frozen on the violin.
Maybe some keys are just chosen to make the piece harder.

Ukepa

I've always wondered, but not enough to look it up, why particular keys are used... thanks for saving me the effort!!!

VoteScientist

I have been wanting to know this about keys for decades. Thank you!

Guo Mashi

Thanks for playing the pastorale at a meaningful tempo.

peter garvey

Prokofiev favoured Bb major as well as C major for some reason. Mozart: Gm and Dm for many great pieces, but those in Bb and F are much duller IMO. No idea why. Years ago I wrote a lot using E as a key centre and a friend suggested it might be related to the lowest note I can comfortably sing. Who knows?

CalmSouls

1y↑1

One highly probable reason G and D are so prevalent is honestly just pure ease of playing or laziness on the part of the composer. Many of these composers started on violin or cello and G and D major are the first keys you learn and are the easiest to play.

Martin H

I own an old Arthur Seybold violin school from about 1900. He starts with C-Major. At that time the technique and the grasping was not looked upon as the most important thing, it was theoretical knowledge. About 25 years later it changed. This goes for Germany.

Brendan Ward

1y↑1

Before the introduction of equal temperament, different keys did sound different. Hence the Doctrine of Affects.

Michael Cripwell

I now want to hear Beethoven’s 5th as it was back in the day.

Frank Wittig

I learned music on the harp, meaning every sharp or flat accidental has to be carefully planned in advance to do the pedaling/changing of levers in time. I never cared about keys until I started playing in orchestras. While I can still fairly accurately tune a concert harp within a few minutes, I cannot distinguish one key from another by hearing. I might be able to find the starting note of a melody on my harp, but transposing the melody serves the exact outcome to me. Call me an anti-synesthete, I guess...

Gowan Hewlett

Excellent presentation......cogent, brief, well illustrated and above all....interesting Thankyou.

Eline

The most annoying key to play in for me is typically c sharp, no matter the instrument.

carlsong643

1y↑1

I think for me, it has most to do with the register and, therefore timbre of the lead instrument(s)

Zenik Torres

Yes, and ease of playing, some keys are easier on certain instrutments. With equal temperament that what it is.

Peter Waksman

You left out a big one: tissue resonance at around F and bone resonance at around F#. I think most composers will tell you that D major (with its F#) is a bright, sunny, key. At the same time, D minor and F are soothing keys. There may be general agreement about the mood of B-flat, etc. Take C# - it is a militant key, abrasive key! Go figure, D-flat is not. Wait! I take it all back.

mike me

Human voice sounds better with flats, instead of sharps. You can find that in many operas and modern musicals, as well. Many composers understood that… think of a tennor that has to play a high F Sharp… would be much easier to play a G flat… can be a simple state of the mind, but works!

David Neidhart

You forgot a Major reason: the temperament, which is establishet from C Major. So through the sytematic use of continuo with a keaboard until end of 18th has hugely infkuenced the perception of keys.

Berke Feil

This still doesn’t explain why certain keys can bring out specific characteristics in the music that the composer identifies and uses. I know from direct experience, as a pianist, that transposing compositions even half a note can be detrimental to the perceived quality of the music, even when it is new to the ear. Apart from the mentioned biases, there is this curious element, that may be part the reason that I prefer to listen to, say, Mozart, in a slightly lowered key to match a more original sounding version. And the thing is, I knew something ‘felt right’ when I listened to such a rendition even before figuring out that it was slightly transposed.

Peter Clark

I am 82 yo piano beginner. Great essay. I love BbM and EbM…..but am uneducated! Still struggle as to why famous pieces do not always work transcribed!

Portal Vortex

Great work -fascinating thank you.

Jorge Otolio

I have to disagree on the affective key characteristics. While it is true that playing on an equal temperament instrument makes the affective key characteristics disappear, those characteristics are still there if you tune an instrument (e.g. the piano - some electric ones have that option) with a different tuning system. And hey, they do work.

VRNocturne

1y↑1

not to mention we can still use modes and intervals to evoke emotions/feelings - there's a reason why phyrgian (or phyrgian dominant) sounds "darker" than major/ionian.

Karol C.P.M.

1y↑4

5:43 I don't sit well with these synthesia colors probably because those vary uniquely from person to person.

George Spelvin

Have you noticed that the gypsy fortunetellers' chorus in La Traviata and the gypsy witch's aria in Il Trovatore are both in e minor?
Verdi must have associated gypsies with e minor.
Have you noticed that "Signore, ascolta" from Turandot and the melody at the end of Act II of La Rondine are both in Gb major?
Puccini must have associated the pentatonic mode with Gb major.

Ron M

She loves the way Puccini lays down a tune, and Verdi's always creeping from her room.

karlinchina

So can someone adjust Beethoven's Fifth to the "true" key that he imagined it in?

Vocal Chords

1y↑1

This professional musician started with F# (enharmonic Gb) - aged 7 - because my teacher said, 'This is the key Chopin said we should start with - and even your little hands will pivot beautifully' - so C major was at the end of my queue!

Skelly Skeleton

2y↑4

Nice video!! Always been wandering this. Thanks ❤️

Rik77

I think the only time keys really sound different are if playing on a keyboard (piano, organ or harpsichord) that is not tuned to equal temperament. Thats geberally the only time there's a real boticeae difference. Composers carried those prejudices into their thinking.