Cosmic Without Logic
Moon/Ruin Lyrics
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@DraconisV2
I love that this was tackled in Stellaris! There's a new Origin in the game called Fear of the Dark wherein Venus was totally destroyed by a freak asteroid causing a huge division on Earth on whether the incident is a malicious attack or just a freak accident and is nothing more than mere paranoia. This division led to a lot of people terraforming and colonizing Mars in order to escape Earth because of the belief that somewhere out there, there is someone purposely targeting our home planet in order to destroy it.
Ok this next bit is a spoiler so don't continue if you have plans on playing the game with this Origin.
Basically, after years of exploration and progress in the game, you'll later find out that in a nearby solar system, an unknown species of alien had built a huge space cannon and was using all their resources in their home system to create huge bullets to attack nearby systems that they had detected that contains life. However, because of the unique gravity of Jupiter on our Sol system that protects us from most asteroids, this huge bullet that was aimed at Earth was actually reorientated by the gravity into destroying Venus instead. By the time that you discover this truth, the alien species that had done the attack are already dead with their home planet barren with life and the space cannon inoperable.
It seems that the unknown species was so paranoid that it believed in the idea that any life out there is a threat to their existence which then led to the construction of a space cannon that will guarantee that they will be the one to do the first strike rather than be a victim of one. This paranoia however led to them depleting all the resources in their solar system without even inventing FTL travel which then caused mass extinction of their species, which is fortunate for Earth because it meant that a second strike will never arrive.
At this point, the player will have a decision to turn into a Fanatic Purifier since it was proven that aliens in the galaxy are actually willing to exterminate you when given the chance and also a big "I told you so!" from the colonists who fled Earth to Mars. That, or you can stay as a Xenophile and declare that yes, some aliens are bad, but not all of them are out to get you. In the end, you'll get an achievement named "Dark Forest" if you convert into a Fanatic Purifier and eliminate all life in the galaxy, from the most advanced ones, down to the alien species that are still stuck in the stone ages.
@tomkandy
The Killing Star has the best summary of this idea;
"We ask that you try just one more thought experiment. Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That's when the monsters come out. There's always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.
It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can't read minds.
Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.
How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, "I'm here!" The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, "I'm a friend!"
What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don't want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.
There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.
There is no policeman.
There is no way out.
And the night never ends."
@thedeepesthat4029
@@johnappleseed9290
We can already create quite realistic alternative realities using our basic computer technology.
Once we have quantum computing, we will simply be able to run algorithms in power physics systems and they will just create universes, or maybe it will be AI that will do this for us.
We can tell from how the universe grew, that it came from a simple state, and that is how we would create a universe, from a single algorythmic origin, and let it expand within a program.
The way we make computer games now, it would be impossible to create a new universe, it would be far to much work. The universe we live in shows us jow it is to be done, and we will replicate that. Inevitably at some point.
@stardolphin2
"This is why everyone is so terrified of humanity, who feel the need to loudly broadcast their location."
As if no one else does, just because we haven't seen such signals yet? Assuming there is indeed a danger in doing so, all civilizations may go through a period of 'not yet knowing better.'
Your assertion also implies that 'everyone' (especially if they're not also already talking to each other) will respond to awareness of our presence in the same way. Some may reach out if sufficiently gregarious, some may pre-empt, if sufficiently paranoid.
Or anything in between.
This isn't about what humans do, it's about what enough others may do, to be consistent with the Fermi Paradox.
@Jim54_
I wonder if you could use the clockwork radio principle to power a probe that won’t be needed to be activated for decades, or possibly even longer.
Like a probe sent to Alpha Centauri perhaps, with Solar Radiometers on the probe to both activate the probe as it nears the Solar system its aimed towards, and recharge the clockwork mechanism like a giant self rewinding watch that never stops running.
The electronics would have to be powered like a clockwork radio, negating the need for batteries or Nuclear power, which will degrade over extremely long periods. This is the issue with the voyager probes as they age, despite the fact that the electronics and computers within the probe are functioning perfectly after nearly half a century of constant use.
The probe would have to be large and capable of making independent decisions, which may require a large amount of older hardier computer chips
You could even go a step further, and have small landers on the larger probe that could be fired and directed towards other planets. They could be hardy probes, with a self contained non rechargeable clockwork power source of their own. Preferably a hardy probe to gather planetary data quickly, similar to the Venetian and Titan probes of the past.
The only issue would be having a secondary rechargeable clockwork mechanism to power the transmitter, which would have to be very powerful for the extremely long distances to earth. Storage of information until broadcast would be vital.
If Spacex can reduce the cost of launches further, perhaps we could have a mother ship probe that could launch smaller satellites like a Clockwork Cassinis, to examine planetary systems and their moons, as well as launch the aforementioned smaller probes
This is a bit long winded and hypothetical but its worth thinking about…
@Masata240
Great analysis! And at timestamp 8:57, you made a brilliant and pragmatic counterpoint to fear based on our primal instincts versus our progress as a civilization to truly "grow up".
Progressive science fiction like the original Star Trek (made over half a century ago and with a more diverse cast) better sums up our sense of wonder - “Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
If anyone wants an OG "dark forest" science fiction-fantasy-horror, there's:
1. The "grimdark" Warhammer 40K lore that has been fleshed out over three decades and counting, enriched with the perspectives of multiple authors from different times. It is a story of what appears to be the hopeless struggle of humanity against superior threats, against itself, and to make itself the primary race in the universe
2. The "weird", "purplish", and cosmic science fiction horror that was written a century ago by H.P. Lovecraft. These are short stories that tear down our anthropocentric hubris in the face of the unknown horrors of the universe.
These examples are far from being the only references. They came to mind after watching this video. I would love to know more examples.
I also think it's important to treat the author's "dark forest" idea as science fiction and not confuse it with actual science. I would rather leave that to the professionals, aka scientists with stringent peer-reviewed theories.
If the opposite is true, then in fairness, we must give equal coverage to the above examples and other science fiction ideas by authors such as Frank Herbert, Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Dan Simmons, Orson Scott Card, and others (Dune, Space Odyssey, Foundation, Hyperion, Ender's Game, and the upcoming or existing movie adaptions) as theories and philosophies that merit balanced discussion.
Nevertheless, I am glad that a work of science fiction sparked a serious discussion of our place in the universe. If it helps more people explore the science fiction genre, be it reading more books or playing games, then more power to them!
@tacitozetticci9308
I think the most likely solutions would be:
1) the pessimistic one, with the Great Filter still in our future.
or
2) advanced civilizations eventually somehow find a way out of the galactic jungles, escaping to an unreachable place we can't imagine while still having some source of energy.
(Now the crazy idea: you know we're basically caged inside our local group of galaxies because of the expansion of the universe right?
Well, wouldn't that be the ultimate way to isolate oneself from the rest of the universe?
Generating such a phenomenon intentionally, a civilization with universal influence … it wouldn't be impossible after billions of years right?
But yeah I guess physicists would have noticed by now, the data would point to a sudden acceleration popping out of nowhere in the history of the universe, and I don't think that's the case.)
@KrytenKoro
The first-strike advantage being discussed relies on some assumptions that are not unquestionable.
Firstly, it requires that there be essentially no way to deal with a relativistic kill vehicle once it's spotted. It would definitely require having defenses prepped before hand, but if a civilization can figure out the technology to manuever out-of-the-way or develop some sort of interplanetary shield to absorb the hit, then all you've accomplished is giving your hostile intentions away and opening yourself up to reprisals. It's just m.a.d. in space.
The second part is that even if there's no way to physically defend against it, it's not impossible to calculate where the attack came from, so you could just give your attacker the middle finger by broadcasting their location to the Galaxy. Even if you can't survive, you can take them down with you.
Finally, the Moses option always exists. Unless they can absolutely confirm that the Target civilization has not made it off their planet, they can't guarantee but there won't be survivors who will seek revenge. There's a reason so many surviving species are aggressively expansionist.
There's also the obvious ethical quantities with genociding and entire intelligence species just based on the paranoia that they could intend you harm. There's not a good reason why you wouldn't just apply that same paranoia to your fellow human, which is why the dark forest paradigm only really seems plausible to the sort of mind that solves problems by shooting them rather than thinking them out - not unlike the human rulers who choose to threaten atomic weapons as their first option.
It's an approach that makes for a good thriller, but it's not really rational as a real life strategy.
@kurzgesagt
If this video made you curious and you like reading great and long sci fi books, check out the three body problem by Liu Cixin, who formulated the dark forest idea for the first time. And with that, we say good bye to the year 12,021. It truly was a wild time, and passed so, so quickly. For us at the Kurzgesagt team it was full of changes and achievements and we learned so much and tried so many new things. And we have so many exciting ideas and projects that we can’t wait to share with you next year! I know I say this often but doing Kurzgesagt really is just such a joy. We only can do this because of you, so thank you so, so much. We appreciate it more than you might imagine. Have wonderful holidays and get safely into the year 12,022. We’ll see you on the other side! – Philipp
PS: And if you want to help us do what we do, check out our store with sciency products made with love: https://kgs.link/shop-156
@FalconType
You fell off + ratio
@cubit404
Same thing you kurzgesagt!
@nothingexists5066
First
@craftingcloud8642
First
@misterchef944
BS LIFE IS OUT THERE
@Scouthedog1
I feel like the Hunter in the technological forest could spin-off to its own Internet show.
I'd watch that
@eat2788
@@dilkush_21 k i wont
@UltraDripstinctSonGoku
@@dilkush_21 ok
no one cares about your profile anyway
@another_dead_account
@@dilkush_21 ok.