Infidel? / Castro! is an experimental band from Philadelphia. A collaborati… Read Full Bio ↴Infidel? / Castro! is an experimental band from Philadelphia. A collaboration between Colin Marston and George Korein, their style incorporates ambient, metal, IDM, digital collage and live instrumentation, all in a dark context. After a CD-R of early recordings, Infidelicacy, they put out their first official CD, Case Studies in Bioentropy, in November 2001. It featured concepts such as "The Violence of Hygiene" reflected in a collage of voice samples. They began performing live as a duo, swapping between guitar, bass, drumset and keyboard as well as using looping and a drum machine. A split 12" record with Friendly Bears was released by Epicene Sound Systems and Rice Control, featuring "The 49-Day Period Between Lives", a collage combining modified materials from Case Studies in Bioentropy and their following double CD sequel, Bioentropic Damage Fractal. They recorded two Suicide Ballads for the 4-way split CD Contre Tous released by Dead Mind Records in Holland. These tracks were a significant departure, featuring more song-like elements and morbid lyrics spoken or sung through vocoder. The latter of the two, Exposing One's Belly to Predators, was a love song loosely based on the real-life story of German cannibals Armin Menschenfresser and Bernd Juergen. They toured the US for two weeks in January 2004 as a trio with ex-Time of Orchids drummer Keith Abrams. Bioentropic Damage Fractal was finally released in April 2005 on Crucial Blast Records. The band has been on indefinite hiatus ever since.

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Damage Fractal Series I: Incorrect Reassembly
Infidel?/Castro! Lyrics

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Most interesting comment from YouTube:

Jehty

@ravenshrike no, it did not.
Again: It only tested which technique removes more material. Not which technique dulls the file more.

Let's take the coarse file as a example:
The negligible difference for the coarse file doesn't answer the question. It just raises more questions.
Because there are (at least) two possible explanations for that negligible difference:

1. Backdragging doesn't dull the file more and, as you suspect, backdragging doesn't remove more material because the file isn't sharp enough in that direction.

2. The file gets a lot duller when backdragged.
Basically it shaves of material on the forth and back stroke (so theoretically it should remove much more material) but because it gets dull quicker it removes less material then it theoretically could.
And the amount removed is just almost the same as the lift technique by chance.

The way the test was performed in this video can not test if the file gets duller.

All comments from YouTube:

sixtyfiveford

2y↑6.8K

I will continue to light backwards drag. Sadly this won't appease the armchair professional filers.

The Dewitt Clinton

@g q lol

The Dewitt Clinton

@SnowblindOttergrind a handle on the business end of the file. Cut off original handle.

The Dewitt Clinton

@Ray Hawk you.ain’t.kidding!

105 More Replies...

Doug Bas

2y↑110

I am 74 years old and I have used the light drag method all my life and was admonished by my dad a professional mechanic. I now have a Craftsman handy file I bought at 17 YO and it still bites well. I went by observation. It continued to cut well and I felt I had better control and tired less. Now you have shown conclusively that the light drag method is a good method. I appreciate your effort and the establishment of this fact.

Gene Pavlovsky

@Three Stans I'm guessing the Parmigiano won't dull the Microplane's teeth even if backdragged :)

Three Stans

2y↑1

i figured it would clear any crap left over from the bite or whatever too. to give a cleaner file for the next stroke. I’m more a cook tho and do that cuz it works well with micro planing too.

Roddy The Mime

2y↑721

This is probably the cleanest experiment video I've ever seen, like it's Mythbusters-quality. Everything was so satisfyingly structured. Genuinely interesting as well, thank you!

Auto play happy

Woow😷😷😷😷💀😱

thattguuy b

2y↑3

u need to fuck around and find out about project farm

Keagan Tijerina

@em cee hm-

em cee

Haha. Mad isn't it.
Do you do much filing?
I'm a novice. Haha
Probably will never pick up a file. What am!I even doing here? Haha.

jtland

2y↑7

You should check out Project Farm, he makes videos like this if not better where it is him testing products of all sorts in very structured and scientific manners like this. I often buy products solely based on what did best in his tests.

Disaster In The Homeshop

2y↑788

I have to admit I always had my doubts about the "damage" to a file back-dragging causes and well this kinda settles it really. Guess the old-timers who taught me were right; it makes no difference to the file.

GoodBoiDaYTer DaGamer

@Sihilius i think saying that back dragging after doing a forward stroke undoes the some of the dulling the forward stroke does would be more accurate

Jehty

@ravenshrike I must admit I have overlooked the last minute of the video.
Because that test answered the question.
But only that test. And only for the MEDIUM file.
He didn't do that test for the coarse and fine file.

ravenshrike

2y↑1

@Jehty No, just no. If the file gets significantly more dulled due to the backdragging technique, there should have been a greater than 2.3% difference in filing after he used a fresh MEDIUM file by backdragging only 2500 times first before using the lift technique. That 2.3% difference shows minimal increase in wear. As I stated, a 5 hour difference in work life time over 200 hours. A 50 hour difference over 2000 etc...

The material hardness was roughly the same in all instances with some unknown minor variance. Which means if significant dulling was happening it wouldn't just show up on the coarse file and would have shown up in the backdrag only then lift only test. The only way to know any more precisely would be to test sayyy 100 files on 100 coupons, test type being irrelevant so long as it is the same for all 100 runs, and figure out a median material variance so long as no major bimodal patterns showed up, then up the amount of strokes in the above test to 25,000 in 2500 increments to additionally see any increased wear on the file between each test.

There is another explanation for the difference between COARSE, MEDIUM, and FINE that I didn't think of at the time however. It may be that the forward stroke generates a large enough burr on the medium and fine files that it interferes with performance a bit and the backstroke just clears the burr or bends it back with no significant dulling at all. In order to control for that you would have to use a nylon brush on both sides of the file and somehow rig up two separate hoppers for the chips and then weigh their contents after each run. Even then it would be terribly imprecise.

Jehty

ravenshrike

@Jehty Except it did answer. The answer was negligible difference when he backdragged only first, then lifted for the second 2500 strokes. 2.3% of a cutting difference(13.4mm vs 13.1mm) is almost certainly within file/coupon variance. You'd need a hell of a lot more files and coupons to determine exactly what your error bars would be. But let's assume that your file/coupon variance is 0, that means your lifted file would last 1/43rd times longer than your full drag file. So assume the full dragged file lasts 200 hours, your lift only technique file would last 205 hours of work.

However, your full drag file achieves a 20% and 40% better result for the fine and medium files respectively which means it is definitely worth it when using those two files in terms of time saved. Interestingly it only achieves a 2.6% better result on the coarse file which when accounting for the extra exertion probably isn't worth it. At a guess this is because the backdrag on the coarse is barely sharp enough on the back stroke to shave material off at 40lbs of pressure. Which means that harder metals will see an eventual drop off to 0.

Addendum - My guess as to the difference in the fine and medium files is that the coupon is too wide and the fine teeth channels on the file fill up with metal shavings before fully traversing it. a thinner coupon would probably show an as good or better result than the medium file.

16 More Replies...

Jackson Feddock

2y↑123

I really appreciate the ingenuity behind the switch for the piston, the lever to click the counter, and the toothbrush. All simple yet genius solutions.

j

2y↑13.3K

I'm 126 years old and have been professionally filing since before my parents were born. I've always lifted my files, and the files of everyone within a two kilometer radius, but this video has made me rethink everything I

Blossom vr

Sheeesh bro is 126?

Tony

I know your lying because in the bible it says god put the limit at 120 years of age soooo yea...

Francesco Deledda

@R. A. Facklam oops my mistake!

187 More Replies...

sgsellsit

2y↑173

I had a retired machinist in my shop one day and he wanted some tubing. He also wanted two parts that would telescope. I only carry HREW tubing. I suggested just filing the weld down. So I went to town on a 6" long tube. I never lifted once and he had a come apart. "YOU ARE RUINING YOUR FILE!" he said. Then he asked; You never had any real training did you? Let me show you. He took the file and started his slow, steady, file, lift, file, stop and check, repeat. He went on for about 15 minutes. I said with all due respect I am self employed and no one is paying me by the hour to finish a job when I am good and ready. Much less take and hour to do a 5 minute job. I have to get a job done and move on to the next thing or I lose money. He said, well I guess you go through a ton a files and that costs you money. Then he said; I like the feel of that file, it works good; What brand is it? I said with a sheepish grin; It is harbor freight that was part of a 4 file set. They were $6.49 regular price that ended up being $4.99 with my ITC plus 20% off so with tax they were $4.37. I have had them for two years and use them several times a month. He handed the file back to me and said; Maybe I need to rethink things and not be such a stickler just because I learned it one way. I filed the rest of the weld out, fit the two parts together to his satisfaction and he paid me double what I had quoted him. He stops by the shop about every two weeks and gets some stuff or just to say Hi. I have started bringing him in on projects and learning from him on stuff that really matters.

Wesley Smith

2y↑3

God I love harbor freight.. I'm about to just go there now to aimlessly browse lol

Stephen Bartram

2y↑1

👏👏👏👏👏

Ryan M.

2y↑439

“That’ll destroy your file”
Ok, I’ll buy a new one when it breaks, they aren’t expensive

Jack R

2y↑7

Time saved vs cost. Seems like time saved wins out, though the specifics of operations might be variable.

Yung Wad

2y↑28

@Anikin Martinez no bitches? 🥺

Ryan M.

2y↑51

@Anikin Martinez then you wouldn’t use it

Anikin Martinez

2y↑9

what if the file has sentimental value? 🥺

Dat Pudding

2y↑25

Also really good files: 10 to a couple hundred bucks each depending on the type

But yeah, doesn't really seem to hurt em anyway. Way worse to slam them together or applying impact forces to them.

Thomas Burkhart

2y↑30

i never thought i’d see such a well made experiment—everything is professional and considered to keep the experiment’s integrity intact

Patrik Einarsson

2y↑4

It's not about whether the file gets damaged or not. It's about precision when attempting to make very flat surfaces. In high school shop class, before we were allowed to start training on any machinery we had to hand file a 30x20x20mm block of mild steel to within a tenth of a millimeter everywhere. It took most of us about 6 hours, but the ones who failed the first time had to start over from scratch. That's how I learned to use a file correctly for precision work. Back in the day before lathes and milling machines people actually were filers for a living. I can't really say that I had much practical use of the precision filing technique. But we started by getting the feel for the material and tolerances, which was the whole idea.

Art Szabo

2y↑7.6K

I am 70 years old and up till today I was a staunch LIFT guy! Until today. I love the way you set this up. There is NO room for argument. You have an ironclad case. Not only does it not dull the file, but it actually cuts on the backstroke, SIGNIFICANTLY!! Good for you young man, don't take everything the old guys tell you as law. Hats off to you sir, slap on the back and mucho respect.
Art

Art Szabo

@ᛋᛒᛖ‍ᚱᚫᛞᚻᛏ Just my thoughts based on experience. Somewhere there is a welding text book distributed out over a hundred trade schools with that word in it. It is pure French and means ' a piece cut off'. So in the processing of this book it went from the hands of expert welders into the hands of college educated idiots. We are all aware of the hatred college people have for plain simple English and their love of weird words and their cultic worship of anything European, especially Latin or Greek or the metric system. Anything that is NOT traditional American.
And you ask what are they really? They are samples of a whole intended for another person to test for a specific purpose. They are just plain old samples, a word we all know.

ᛋᛒᛖ‍ᚱᚫᛞᚻᛏ

But why on earth are those called coupons? That's the real question in this video. There's no etymological relation of a piece of metal to a coupon so why did someone decide that was a good name for those and what are they really?

Zira Tival

@FreedomisntFree America That's the cost of automation, I'm afraid... Unless you wanna givee this guy a boatload of money and a group of really smart people.

C W

Seeing as this guys name is art. I have no doubt this is in fact and old timer that knows his craft.

Snark Nado

@JamesCraigHeath007 uwuuuu daddyyyyy

95 More Replies...

RJ Brown

2y↑28

I just stumbled upon this video and I'm impressed. Your initial design and ability to adapt and reiterate to create the most accurate results possible are really inspiring. Also, I like how "busting" myths is just how its said now. Well done.

Johan Bundgaard

2y↑1

It could also be interesting to see how damaged 2 files would be after removing the same amount of material (e.g. 1in) using lift vs. drag only. If they can't reach the 1-inch mark, then maybe see how far each method would go before the file used for it would be fully dulled.
Anyway, thanks for the great video :)

David Gerritzen

2y↑24

From this test I can say that if there is any significant benefit from the lift technique it is really only for the fine grit files, the medium and course it seems to have improved the effectiveness to just drag it back. This makes filing so much easier.

Gene Pavlovsky

06:10 I want a 10-hour version of this filing meditation! Especially the brush's bristles riding the teeth on the backstroke, really nice to look at.

zakintha ferenczy

2y↑1.6K

This was randomly recommended by YouTube, and in an idle moment i decided to watch it. I don't file stuff, but i found myself enthralled - there was no question of quitting before the end. Congratulations on producing something so well set up and presented. I'm now subscribed.

Bobslayer 9000

Wow you ended up most liked comment

J. Hernandez

Man nailed it! Exactly my story minus the sub.

Tyler Strahl

2y↑1

Haha theirs science too making viral videos he did great an manged to get the algorithm on his side

F Davis

Agreed, he puts out a professional quality video product imo.

Quantum Kat

Same lol this guy is great

14 More Replies...

bearpants 83

2y↑11

Wear will always cause wear, so of course it causes more rapid depletion of the file more over time. Any time you bend and reshape material you create metal fatigue. That being said, the drag possibly helps straighten the burr, like cutlery maintenance. It will wear down the file more rapidly but it also might make it function for longer.

Beau Nakamori

2y↑6

Please test back dragging a wooden hand plane now! I've always lightly dragged on the return stroke and I've got criticism for damaging the blade by doing so. I'd be super curious to know if thats true.

TehBlindLinus

2y↑22

Would love to see the impacts of this on Sterling and 14k or 18k. I've been back dragging for years and everyone chides me for it, but I've always felt that the back drag gives more control and consistency. Thanks for this video!

Grant Harriman

2y↑2

I would be very interested to see what the curve of length removed vs strokes looks like on those different trials. I would be fascinated to know if the drag techniques got out to an early lead and ended up slower or not.

Coyote27981

2y↑821

This series of testing theories of how to properly use tools are great. Really helpful thanks.

Paul Frederick

@Paul Copeland I still keep my files apart from each other. Evidence or no I see no reason to chance it. You won't find a drawer full of files rattling around together in my shop. You will find racks and wraps for files though.

Paul Copeland

@Paul Frederick ...Another myth that was taught to me years ago. I never believed in it and have personally found no evidence of any issues or shenanigans from files touching. However, "letting files touch" does have a certain "X rating" ring to it.

「 MɅTTS 」

@Paul Copeland check the 10 minute mark, this is without and with drag. It's clearly visible there are trenches from the drag (the lower file). So the file gets more damage this way.

Paul Copeland

2y↑1

@「 MɅTTS 」 ....I believe the only time there were "trenches" was when he ran the test file in reverse! Give it up. Your anti-drag ways will need to change.

Paul Frederick

Now we have to test the myth that letting files touch damages them. Because I was certainly triggered by this 7:08

7 More Replies...

Donnerwamp

2y↑70

Interesting to see my theory that a file will also remove material on a back stroke confirmed, even though I thought it's because the backstroke removes "halfway removed chips" instead of removing chips by itself. I also find it easier to maintain an angle when using backstrokes instead of lifting, so it's a double win in my books. And if a file gets damaged by dragging the teeth in the less resistive direction, then it should lose teeth like a machinegun loses brass when going forwards.

ParRagon -

2y↑2

I Never had any doubt about this experiment. Just compare it to hacksaws when you start a cut, backwards starts a cut way easier then forwards.

WhtSqurl

2y↑1

In the video, the chips actually stopped the file from filing effectively. He ended up installing a toothbrush to clear the chips.

Peter Mills

2y↑1

To test the sharpness of the files, you should have filed the coupons again using the same technique on both sides but much fewer strokes, then compared how much material was removed each time.

Eamon McDonnell

That was a great test. When I was an apprentice in the sixties, we were thought to back drag to clear the chips (In Ireland)! Who knew! Well appreciated all the energy & clever setup used to run the experiment! Many thanks!

Александра Лебедева

i never thought i’d see such a well made experiment—everything is professional and considered to keep the experiment’s integrity intact

Neptune's Creations

2y↑881

I'm 52, had a formal machining edumacation and always lifted my file. To me watching someone drag a file was like nails on a chalk board for me. These were interesting tests. I'll have to re evaluate what I was taught. I would be interested in seeing more testing with other materials and file brands. Thanks

Mason Heipel

@kontoname all I know is I'm not always using the tools and materials he's using :) it's only outdated once proven so

Mason Heipel

@SalveMonesvol no doubt, it definitely changed my mind and habits

Bryan Hersman

@Ravenna the numbers shown are the measurement of the material filed away with equal strokes. The microscope showed no difference at all in file wear. So what you get is 20% more filing done by dragging with no change in tool life.

ISK KILL

@Mason Heipel he gives his reasoning in the video. Literally duplicating what he did that garnered the response regarding dulling his files by dragging. The test was to disprove those comments on that EXACT video. Would you like to see more comparisons between materials and file brands? Sure so would I. But this video proved his point for this instance. If you are that curious, replicate the test yourself or offer the creator of the vid the tools and materials to replicate it with what you want.

Neptune's Creations

@Traindude70 Good Point, Still another reason to do more tests.

28 More Replies...

march11stoneytony

I never file and don't care about filing, but I appreciate how well thought out and executed the experiment was.

Snafu

2y↑35

Interesting that you have coarse, medium and fine as your 3 grades of roughness. In the UK we have 4, rough, bastard, second cut and smooth - I have no idea how these came to be named this way 😄

Alexander Trowell

@Spaghetti_Man you can go to any hardware store in the states and get a bastard file

blank0104

2y↑1

@Curt Sampson why did i not think about it that way, thanks for the explanation

Curt Sampson

2y↑3

@blank0104 The sense of "bastard" is"hybrid" or "impure." Thus, a "bastard child" is one who has a one parent outside of the marriage of the other, a "bastard sword" is between a long sword and a two-handed sword, and of course a "bastard file" is one between a coarse and a finer file.

There are other meanings, too, of course. I have a file that I hate because I keep injuring myself with it, though it's damn good at filing. So when I really need to get something filed regardless of the pain I know it's about to cause me, I say "pass me that bastard file." :-)

blank0104

2y↑4

i remember bastard files but no idea why theyre called that, i know theres bastard swords which are basically halfway between a 2 and 1 handed sword tho

Martha Mryglod

2y↑3

My grandfather taught me the term "bastard file" when I was eleven and the thought of it entertained me for years

1 More Replies...

Victor Phongphaysane

If someone told me that I would watching a video about filling during 16 min I wouldn't believe him !

Nice animations, good editing, experimental bench very precise, all is great !

Thank you sir, I loved it !

Off-Road Anything

2y↑2

The montage at 8:00 was so CLEAN. So well done in every way. Visually creative, expertly paced, and with a real flair for what little art and excitement there was to be had from a filing test machine.
It was good, dude, real good.

Jesse Helton

2y↑919

This test is great for hardcore filers, but what I want to see is a test where you buy a brand-new file and only use it twice ever. Which technique should I use? Any tips?

Wesley Smith

Realistically if you're only going to "use it twice" it wouldn't matter drag or lift if its damage you're worried about.

Teddy Dibiase

@Dat Pudding your grandfather would be very disappointed you spent $30 on that file.

Chevdriver

2y↑5

Use the file however you want as long you get the best result, i even slap the side of my files on the table to safe time cleaning it most of the chips just fall of, i dont really give a shit files are one of the cheaper tools you buy

J K

2y↑3

@P C oh you, people

P C

2y↑1

@DankCount you people? How dare you! You can’t say that!

6 More Replies...

OE vR

2y↑1

Very interesting resarch. I remember the very first time I did a chainsaw course, they told me to lift the file on the back stroke (sharpening a chainsaw). I was the youngest in the course and actually had a lot more experience in filing than anything else I learned that day. So I was kind of annoyed to be corrected on what to me was decent filing. I did not want to be a smartass so I assumed this 'new' lift technique. Now, after this video I feel somehow redeemed. Although you could still argue that the drag technique would still be inferior for sharpening a chainsaw for whatever reason.

Luke Wiseman

2y↑55

Wow. That was interesting. Thank you. Like many, I always believed that filing backwards damaged the file. Well, at least for mild steel it doesn't. I usually file hand-saws, which are a much harder steel.Would you be able to repeat this experiment with a harder steel as your coupon target? Maybe with just one file type to make it simpler? Also did the pressure on the work piece approximate to that in normal filing? There was a very big difference between the hardness of you files and the target pieces. Best wishes, Luke Wiseman

Zira Tival

2y↑2

Sounds like coping to me

77thTrombone

I agree. I bet the whole "rule" came from the seasoned machinist telling the kids not to back drag because kids haven't developed the skill to lightly backdrag.
The lesson on the "rule" here is: "don't care for copper, Al, mild steel, PVC, etc."
No decision on harder stuff.

Alessi 42

Would be interesting to see the amount of material removed over time rather than the total material removed to see if it quickly drops off after a certain period. Great video!

Ryan Babros

2y↑5

Back dragging always worked for me when I wanted to smooth out a rough filing surfaces because it doesn't cut as hard. My files seem fine so far.

Clifton Green

2y↑449

The quality of this content is insane. Where was this stuff when I was a teenager???

Great job on both production quality and straightforward experiments. Please tell your editor (whoever that is) that their talent doesn't go unnoticed.

THROAST

Right? When I was in school they told us not to have sex cause we'd get diseases.

Emperor of Mankind

2y↑1

@Beeftec
The setup is pneumatic, the air pressure regulator that he showed maintains a uniform continuous pressure once the pneumatic cylinder reaches full pressure.

The bounce in the slow motion is a result of the ram requiring less pressure to move, than the full operating pressure. Which allows the ram to go to the extended position and bounce faster than the cylinder reaches full pressure

Paul Copeland

@Beeftec ....Give it up! The myth is busted. There are no "technicalities"!

JOSEPH

2y↑1

I recall mainstream documentaries going downhill when the reality TV aspect creeped into early 2000's tv. Other than that i was quite pleased with early to mid-nineties documentaries... then again i was like 9 years old.

Boom Stick

2y↑1

I suppose it was in the same place as the internet…

5 More Replies...

Emanuel Frias Núñez

This is probably the cleanest experiment video I've ever seen, like it's Mythbusters-quality. Everything was so satisfyingly structured. Genuinely interesting as well, thank you!

Robert Mcdonald

2y↑3

When I was an apprentice, I was told not to drag the file on finishing work due to it leaving marks. I'm not surprised that it removes material backward. It's also probably lapping the cutting edge when it's dragged backward...

Thomas

2y↑12

Thank you for taking a scientific look at this myth I am sure everybody has heard of. Even here in Germany machinists know it!
And it's nice to see you also use Pferd products. The company is more than 200 years old and known for its great quality products.

Ttavoc

2y↑1

Naja wir sagens, wenn mal ehrlich ist, weil jedem die Quietscherei am Arsch geht 😂

john zitting

2y↑24

Thank you so much for that test video! I’ve always thought people were straight wrong about back strokes dulling a file. Files are too hard to make a significant difference to where it’s worth lifting it every time. Not to mention, in my experience it takes more time to do a lift stroke on most projects. Time is valuable too.

Bill McKenzie

2y↑215

I'm now a retired tradesman in Australia. I must admit I've always believed the backstroke rub did wear the file some. But - I've always been a believer in using a very light backstroke rub in order to quickly set up for the next forward stroke. I believed the small sacrifice was justified for the time saved on each stroke setup. A new file was cheap when it became necessary. You've taught me something. But then, I learn something in all your posts. Keep them comming.

hardergamer

2y↑7

I agree with doing a light backstroke to line up much better, this is how I keep the work peace flatter, lifting the file will round the peace being worked edges off.

USSxRequin

2y↑14

The slow mo was really nice, especially that first one. I would've enjoyed seeing the brush against the file for longer, there's something about it that was captivating.

Dat Pudding

Oddly satisfying indeed

Rihaad8

2y↑1

I just stumbled upon this video and really liked the scientific approach, even though I'll probably never use this knowledge. The surprisingly high amount of metal that was cut by the drag approach could originate from the fact that in this setup the file cuts the material 5000 times instead of 2500 which were used in all other setups. If you add up the results of medium(lift) and medium(drag only) it's quite close to your medium(drag) result.

Siuil Aonarach

2y↑3

Incredible video. Changed my life, lol

I would LOVE to see this test on harder material, maybe some generic tool steel or even some hardened steel (to simulate when sharpening an axe)

Joris Griffioen

About clearing chips, perhaps the orientation makes a difference too. I can imagine they are more likely to fall out when filing with the face down rather than sideways like the experiment.

Very nice work. I'm gonna keep filing the way I was then. :D

Austin Washburn

2y↑337

I'm really digging these machine shop testing videos. You're like the "Project Farms" channel of the machining world in a way.

loacommander

Except watching Fireball isn't annoying like listening to PF. The PF guy sounds like dragging that file against glass. Intolerable.

Gavin Kurtz

"Wow, that's a lot of damage!"

GreatNorthernTroll

2y↑1

Better methodology than Project Farm (in general), but yeah!

flyinghaggis89

2y↑1

@Braden Pitts omg yes

Dylan Dreisbach

2y↑1

Project Farms is a great channel. Even if I dont really care about most of the results, just his strict testing of everything is fascinating. It feels like a mini research paper in every video.

5 More Replies...

Santiago Rubio

Excellent! Very creative and practical in resolving those issues! Nicely done!

Adam Bieber

I love my files. Watching this looked like tool abuse to me and made me uncomfortable... that said I think you are right provided you keep your files clean. I think what the text books may be trying to prevent is pinning. For those that don't know, getting a piece of metal lodged in a file's tooth which can cause long scratches on your work piece.

Really, I think it's all about caring for your files by keeping them clean. I've had to use picks to remove pieces of metal stuck in the teeth of used files I've bought at second hand stores.

Zoltrix Grower

Pretty cool test. I always had a little back drag too. Would be interesting to see if the results are the same on say a 4140

Alexander Ratisbona

2y↑1

Wow. I did not even know that files were supposed to work in one direction only. I always apply pressure stroking back and forth and do not feel any difference there. Good to see that the test confirms my impressions and that it's actually more effective doing it this way and it doesn't hurt the file either.

FarmCraft101

2y↑1.1K

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m also sick of people telling me I file wrong. Especially when it’s with a $1 chainsaw file. I don’t give a $@&! if it did dull the file a bit, I’m not going to lift every stroke and make sharpening the chain take twice as long. And here we find that it doesn’t dull, and just makes you faster. Bahahaha!

Alain Saaiman

@Jason Mares I have personally never noticed any difference and I tried it both ways over many years. I wonder if back drag on a cutting blade makes that much of a difference, perhaps someone could do a test like this to see.

Mikko Rantalainen

For sharpening in general the direction of filing for the finishing steps does make a small difference because of how the metal on the edge of the sharpened edge behaves (the corner always bends ever so slightly). For chainsaws where the sharpened angle is quite steep and the forces used during chainsaw cutting are pretty high, I don't think it makes a huge difference, though.

For high quality kitchen knife, it does make a difference... but you don't sharpen those with a file but with a stone.

thurgogopro

You cannot apply this technique to chainsaw tooth filing as the underside of the teeth is soft and the outside of the teeth is hard chrome. The file will not last long and the chrome cutting edge will be damaged.

Stuart Johnson

2y↑1

@Just Zooken yes absolutely - blade sharpening the drag absolutely takes the cutting edge off.

g g

@Fett Mane III I can't do addition: the post

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William Papsco

Here's what I want to see:

File a specific length of the metal for each type of file and method. Then do a certain number of forward-only strokes for all files and then measure how much of the metal it takes off.

The numbers at the end only suggest that filing with a backstroke will file more in less strokes. It doesn't really prove that the backstroke doesn't dull the file. Filing a specific length of the metal first with each method and file would equalize the amount of filing each file and method does. Then the forward-only strokes measure exactly how dull the file became after the previous filing. Hope to see a follow-up!

Björn Lundquist

2y↑1

I was told it depends on the material beeing filed, drag is ok on softer material but on harder material it is important to lift.

Steve S

I really liked the microscope inspection of the teeth. A short video inspecting before-and-after effects of files that have been sharpened using acid techniques would really be interesting.

Brock MacDonald

It’d be interesting to see how rough a lifted file looks after filing as much material off as a dragged file.

jimmydiresta

2y↑2.4K

The ultimate mechanical “know it all” smack down. Well done 👊🏼

Glauco Villas Boas

@Martin Dillon do you want to kill the poor guy?

Wea Bae

@Watcher but he didn’t disprove that back filing doesn’t cause excessive wear? He focuses on the amount of material removed, and the fine file test clearly shows more damage to the teeth as he said. An actual test of wear and tear would be to do 2500 strokes with both techniques record findings and then another 2500 to compare efficiency over long term use

Sudo Penguin

@Troye Welch well written Sir, I do hope you enjoy your day. I sure enjoyed the comments 😂

Watcher

2y↑4

@Troye Welch Except you have utterly failed to properly pay attention. This video was made in direct response to a know-it-all commenter similar to yourself that claimed this exact metal would dull and ruin the files.

This video directly addresses the concern. I look forward to seeing your time and resource investment showing the results of your assertion in response to this video.

I have subbed to your channel. I hope to see your video soon.

15 More Replies...

Jay Heatherly

I've been a machinist for years and file exactly the same way as you. A very light back drag. My files last forever and they're not typically the most expensive thing in the shop anyway. Now I just want to see a video of that shaper rolling off some big ole naner peel cuts! I haven't seen a shaper in a long time.

paul K

2y↑1

I am so glad that for most of my working life I have dragged in my filing technique. Wow, what a winner ! Thanks for sharing all this info and so glad I watched to the end :)

twocan90

Superb test!
Your rigorous implementation and data analysis (both mathematical and photographic) proves to the most staunch believer in the lift method that "only lift" is an old wives' tale.

Thank you for proving that soft metal does not excessively dull hard metal in any direction.

Josh Dawson

Amazing editing and producing, well done

Will

So refreshing to see some actual structured methodology being applied to testing with care to have as little variance as possible and actually doing more than 1 test run instead of the common "Yeah this feels better for me" after 1 use of the subject. Real quality stuff, well done!

Cai Jephcott

The way I see it, when you cut with the file, it can pull up the sharpened edges. Using a light drag back can push these back down, resetting them and ensuring a more consistent sharpness, causing the slight increase in overall effectivity. Of course, the constant rocking back and forth of the edges would cause stress to build up in the teeth, which would cause them to chip, especially on the fine grit where the teeth are small and are therefore more brittle from a lack of support material behind them. This can cause uneven filing over time.

Both methods are fine to use, it just depends on whether you want a more effective cut, or a more even one, in the long run.

Robert Corran

Maybe take the files that you’ve already tested with and do another 2500 strokes all lifting to see if you find that the ones that were lifted on the back stroke cut better or worse than the ones that were dragged on the back stroke.
Also would be interesting to know the variance between the tests before you averaged the results.

Bloody Mobile

This is an interesting outcome.
But then again, the beginning showed how far apart the files were in hardness from the material.
So I wonder if there's a lot more to the 'myth' when going against hard steel fire example.

WWTRKR

2y↑195

Can't believe how excited I was when this video popped up. I'd forgotten the disappointment a few weeks ago when you finished the first video without a conclusion. Good to see both that my back-dragging technique doesn't appear to be detrimental to the tool and that you confirmed my own observation that it's ultimately more effective.

I reshaped an axe head during the summer and simply got impatient using the lift technique; especially on the hardened portion of the axe. The drag technique was obviously faster to remove material, even with my old, dull, secondhand files.

I should probably treat myself to a new set though. Thanks for the time you spend doing these tests. As a trucker, the twisted / knotted straps test you did was my introduction to your channel. It's won me a couple of drivers' shack arguments. Your vice test let me justify the price I was asking for a secondhand vice I sold and this one is just plainly, personally satisfying. Love the channel, Justin. Keep up the good work. You're an inspiration to a hobbyist like me.

danR

2y↑4

For once I'm glad Google AI reminded me of what I'd watched and had completely forgotten about.
It was smart enough to know I needed to see the action-packed sequel.

M K

I like this video, proving filing can be done either way with minimal difference in file wear. Fact is I use whichever method works for what I want. Never worried about tooth sharpness since the material being filed was always softer. Nice to know nothing negative in doing whatever works. Now how about draw filing?

Tin 4705

it's great to see proper scientific method used in a pretty well controlled environment, never expected this quality out of a youtuber

Brendan

One of the best shop tests out there, with some of the best video work. Well done!

Cyber Punk #386

2y↑1

I’ve been filling into filing cabinets for all my life and always dragged the filing cabinets forward and backwards: No harm to the filing cabinet, only my back.

Liam Bohl

2y↑446

If you do this again, it would be really cool to measure the coupon after every 100 or 250 strokes and graph how a file's performance degrades over time

J Wilson Handmade Knives

2y↑1

files are consumables. where this idea came from that they are precious heirlooms is a mystery to me.

Aaron

Yeah stroke count (i.e. a full pass in either direction) would have been a welcome measurement.

tcpnetworks

Not asking for much....

lacombar

Might as well put a depth sensor and measure at each stroke.

Anna Vannieuwenhuyse

@Mike Stavola Rumor has it, flute tutes (end mills) do that too.

4 More Replies...

Jamal

I've always used the drag method without lift up (constantly making contact with the material) when i used to file the edges of 1,5mm steel sheet plates, never found any problems with my files

D Hickma

2y↑1

I was taught not to drag but to lift and tap the file to clear the chips.

Also, those looked like double cut files, which I rarely used. Maybe try a single cut file to see if there were any difference.

Keith Cline

2y↑2

Great video! I file much like you do and I find that I can keep my file angle more consistent that way. I also store my files so they won't bang into each other which I feel causes extreme damage. Way more than the backstroke would cause as both objects (2 files) are very hard as you've shown in your Rockwell test. Good job. Thanks from Keith

scottythedawg

I find that using the side of the file much more effective when hammering in screws.

Ported Head

2y↑323

"The brush acted as if it was designed to clean teeth." Hilarious, succinct and informative. Well done Sir.

TheSoundOfTwang

@Valkman Mine was modest

snakeballs 89

2y↑1

@Bob Thyer you could always switch the file and the brush.

Arcturus Light

2y↑2

I haven't even noticed the joke while watching! Man, thas hilarious 😂

Bob Thyer

2y↑1

I laughed so much my teeth were showing and in need of a clean. Can you modify this machine to clean teeth. Oh wait you have.

2 More Replies...

Ben Renner

2y↑1

I've filed using both methods depending on what materials I'm filing and with what filer I'm using, I'm not gonna change but this video was cool to watch and I like the machine you assembled

Dr Stratocaster

I just started cursory wood working and intuitively I found my rasps cut backwards on a more micro controlled level. So I assumed it would function the same on metal.

Sure enough.

Sebastian Luna

By far one of the most professional and informative videos I have seen on YouTube thank you very much

Mike Mraz

A rule I always observe when using a file to see how hard something is “use someone else’s file “

piratius

2y↑1.6K

My dad always told me that going backwards doesn't hurt the file, and that it was probably a myth started by some old machinist who got annoyed at the noise it makes. I definitely give a light/low pressure drag rather than lift completely off the work. It's like pitching baseball, everyone has their own technique that's slightly different!

It would be really interesting to see on a very soft metal like an non tempered aluminum. The teeth of the file would tend to plug up, and the back drag might actually help ring out a lot of the material!

Steve Brickshitta

There were plenty of good steel tools about decades and generations ago. Not as widespread as today, but there are plentyof rubbish tools out there today. Not the kind of things a professional would be caught using, but the kind of crap sold at chain department stores for the home handyman. I'd takethe'old tool's over many of today's tools, with the exception of quality. But have I got the cash for that?
I'd say, lift on the backstroke is still a valid tip. A good habit and better shop practice.

F. Meyer

Steel wasnt that good many decades ago and lifting on the way back did indeed keep the blades sharp for a longer time, same with hand planers for wood. With a modern day quality steel, it isnt a problem at all.

Broderick Elliott

@Kendall Shrock That's a good tip; I'll keep it in mind. I do happen to keep beeswax around my shop for a number of uses. I don't have too much call for cutting aluminum since I left that job. I have good steel discs for my angle grinder and circulating saw, but I usually reach for the old hacksaw if I need to cut aluminum. On the occasions I've had to cut aluminum with a disc, switching back to steel seems to clean out any gumming pretty quickly. But I know one day I'll want to duplicate my old work set-up for the sake of convenience; I'll be sure to apply the beeswax then.

Kendall Shrock

@Broderick Elliott bee's wax or a hybrid cutting wax can completely eliminate that issue with cutting or routing aluminum.

ⲈⲘⲒⳐ

I suspect that if you make a file like files were made a couple of centuries ago with the steel quality they used then... It will show why the "dont drag the file" myth exists

17 More Replies...

Fernando Chaves

2y↑1

Excellent! Randomly found this video. My dad taught me that dragging was fine unless the material was hard, then lift the file. I would love to know if there is any truth in that. Incidentally, you say the file "cuts" backwards? I would love to see the chips under the microscope compared to those produced from normal forward stroke cutting. I feel that the backwards action may be more properly said to be grinding rather than cutting as the sharp edges of the teeth are not engaged in the backward direction. Maybe just semantics.

Ronald Johnson

I just prefer the backdrag because I think it keeps the file relative nicely to the work. Lifting and replacing the file makes much more opportunity to misplace the file. Even if it did wear the file it would still be work that accuracy to me.

Dylan Burns

This was a great review I used to work in a galvanizing plant and always had to file off the the customers trailers from the sharp bit of gal that had dried from dripping when hot dipped in gal and was taught that the lift techniques were the only way but now clearly that was just bullshit

Burnt Marshwiggle Studio

Interesting. I work in aluminum and the only thing that has ever been an issue for me is whether or not the file is rusty or clogged. Sometimes you need to file in one direction for a certain effect. Other times a back and forth motion works best. What effect it has on a file never even occurred to me

Ivan Miranda

2y↑501

This channel is a public service. I'll keep sending people to you when they complain in my comment section.

no u

2y↑1

SPACERS!

-

2y↑1

Holy shit you make tanks!! I’m subbed now

SALA X

2y↑2

hostia!,ke casualidad...he conocido hoy tu canal porke alguien te nombró en los comentarios del video de Allen Pan sobre el paraguas de aire...y ahora te leo por akí en otro video completamente random XD btw,suscrito ;D

lockjawjak

I love how even in the most well equiped shop we always find ourselves using something like a toothbrush to get something done, or maybe a paper clip... ^_^

Renshaw

Perhaps a way to decrease the pressure applied to the coupon on the drag would better simulate actual use conditions. It would decrease the amount of material removed on the drag, but might also mitigate any damage caused by the pressure being equal to the forward stroke.

Gary J

the production quality on this video is amazing, thank you!

にゃあエイリアンMeowAlien

2y↑81

Unlike most people in the comment who are experienced with the subject, I have never touched a file before in my entire life but this video is just so good I watch it till the end

This is how science is done, great experiment and recording!

el presidente

@IndigoRage Dude wtf. Shame on that school

IndigoRage

@el presidente From the US and live in the country and my school did not have a shop class, even as an elective

Ray Hai

2y↑2

@el presidente Could be from another country...in Germany you don't have such classes in the "high school" (Gymnasium), only in secondary school (Realschule and Hauptschule, there's no exact translation for our system in english). So if you're not interested in craftmanship etc. and your dad don't show you stuff like that, you'll never use something like this...I know a lot of people, that have absolutely no idea of the simplest things like how to use a screwdriver properly, how a drill works, saw things etc...I got a classmate, that didn't even know how to use a fking broom, at the age of 16...it's really sad...and that was 14 years ago, it's even worse nowadays...I am really happy, that I can use any machine and know how to do sht in the house, garden or on the car, doing electrical work, renovating a house on myself etc. and not being completely dependent on some craftsman.

el presidente

2y↑3

How have you never touched a file in your entire life? Did you never do any shop classes in high school?

Alex Wright

2y↑3

Amen, praise the lord!

Chikin Nuggits

2y↑909

I love it when someone actually puts BS lore that's been floating around for years to the test, and proves it wrong.

zHxIxPxPxIxEz

@Bryan Hersman read my comment again. You didn't understand.

Bryan Hersman

@zHxIxPxPxIxEz but you are not understanding the actual results here. The file IS cutting a little bit backwards, so it files faster by not lifting and yet doesn't wear the tool any more. So the proper, most efficient method of filing is to drag the file, not lift.

zHxIxPxPxIxEz

@Bryan Hersman you also did not understand my comment.

Bryan Hersman

@zHxIxPxPxIxEz except he proved that at least this cutting tool does cut both ways hence dispelling old BS.

zHxIxPxPxIxEz

@Stacey Greaves ya didn't understand my comment.

12 More Replies...

Mark Duggins

Could there be more heat buildup with the back drag actually making the steel softer?

Ben Allwein

This video was surprisingly scientific - I am thoroughly impressed! I am a molecular biologist and this single video has higher-quality and better-controlled experiments than many professional research studies I've read. Kudos to you, let me know if you'd like to step into the lab!

Known as

The way he designed this machine is hilarious, and I love it.
It's like what people do in Minecraft, for comparison.

Thomas Marble

Interesting test and the results are not expected. Thanks for the video and the time you spent to do it

Pomz Toybox

2y↑231

I've used back dragging for decades. Aids me in accuracy by keeping the tool on the work. Any time you lift tool off work you increase your chances of misalignment

Candyman

2y↑2

I spent 30 days in Germany where I was working filing a different lump of steel to 90 degrees on one corner and then perfectly round on the other. So that's 30 lumps of steel, just to practise and get good at filing. Back dragging is the only way. I am the Filer.

Mikko Rantalainen

2y↑1

I've been doing it, too, for the exactly same reason. However, I've tried to keep to drag pretty light because it has felt like being better to keep the file cleaner without a brush - it kind of causes more vibration to file which maybe cleans it better... or at least I'm hoping it.

ShouHeiKun

2y↑4

I’m very amateurish when it comes to using tools. But I’ve used a file quite a number of times, no one taught me how to though. I thought you were supposed to back drag, it made sense in my head lol

Joe Ruanuku

2y↑4

Exactly what I have always thought.

3 More Replies...

Maxime Ouellet

What a amazing episode 😍 I'm amazed, as machinist/mécano I learn at school how to file, I always think I'm right 😅 . J'ai vraiment hâte de voir les vidéos qui suivront.

John Corder

I like this test. It was very controlled and thorough, but I would like to see it done on a harder steel. For example I often sharpen 7/8x18” ship augers as well as many other cutting tools with a file such as axes, hoes, shovels, machetes and lawnmower blades.

It would be j retesting to see what, it any difference harder stew would make.

Jose Reza

That production quality was awesome, keep up the great work.

MetalT-800Skull

I have always back dragged, but felt a little guilty when doing it, it is easier to hold a more precise angle, for me anyway. I can feel less guilty though now.

Anthony Bron

Yes, I work in the AF and when I have used a file(prefer doco with sanding pad) I have always had a slight pressure on backstoke. Has always felt better and more efficeint.

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