The Message
The VS Lyrics

Jump to: Overall Meaning ↴ Line by Line Meaning ↴

Stop your messin' around
Better think of your future
Time you straightened right out
Creatin' problems in town

Rudy, a message to you
Rudy, a message to you

Stop your foolin' around
Time you straightened right out
Better think of your future
Or else you'll wind up in jail

Rudy, a message to you
Rudy, a message to you

Stop your messin' around
Better think of your future
Time you straightened right out
Creatin' problems in town

Rudy, a message to you
Rudy, a message to you

Rudy, a message to you
Rudy, a message to you

Overall Meaning

The song "The Message" by The Specials, also known as The Special A.K.A., delivers a strong message to the listener through its lyrics. The song is an anthem for youth experiencing violence in their communities and encourages them to think about their future and straighten out their actions. The lyrics directly address Rudy, who is presumed to be a troublemaker in the town, and urges him to stop causing problems before he ends up in jail. The repetition of the phrase "Rudy, a message to you" emphasizes the urgency of the message being delivered.

The song was originally released in 1967 by Dandy Livingstone, a Jamaican singer-songwriter, and was later covered by The Specials in 1979. The Specials' version of the song is a mix of ska and reggae music, which aligns with the band's multicultural and politically charged themes. Through their music, The Specials spoke out against racism, poverty, and inequality in the UK.

The message in "The Message" is still relevant today as it encourages youth to think about their future and the impact of their actions. The song serves as a reminder of the power of music to communicate important messages and incite change.

Line by Line Meaning

Stop your messin' around
Cease all of your reckless and careless behavior

Better think of your future
It's essential that you consider the consequences of your actions on your future

Time you straightened right out
You really need to start behaving in a proper and responsible manner

Creatin' problems in town
By continuing to behave irresponsibly, you are causing problems and trouble for others in the town

Rudy, a message to you
This message is specifically directed towards you, Rudy

Stop your foolin' around
Put a stop to all of your joking and foolishness

Or else you'll wind up in jail
If you continue with your reckless behavior, you may end up in prison

Lyrics © CARLIN AMERICA INC
Written by: ROBERT LIVINGSTONE THOMPSON

Lyrics Licensed & Provided by LyricFind

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01Cowboy Song4:11

02Lisa-Marie3:13

03Let Me Talk To The Driver4:35

PT4M42S

08Let's Tear It Up Some4:30

09What's That Sound ?4:59

10The Ballad of Elvi Rosa5:03

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Most interesting comment from YouTube:

@tomjames9681

21w↑31

What BAFFLES me the most is that RTD can write great stories with representation.
He seemingly understands great storytelling, or at least did understand it.
He did it consistently with Doctor Who and Torchwood. One story that always makes me laugh is when he was talking about the BTS for Children of Earth, the third series of Torchwood. There’s a character death in that story that is incredibly impactful, and it was floated that the character might survive somehow in the writing room. RTD was always labelled as “the softy” when it came to his stories, which made it funnier when he insisted on keeping the ending as heart wrenching as possible, leaving the character dead.

It was a lead character, who was also gay and Russel didn’t shy away from the idea of letting that character stay dead, when the tropes of a lot of current day writing would probably have you keep them alive to avoid “burying your gays” or whatever.

There were some writing issues with that storyline, but aside from those, the writing was brilliant, creative, dark and thoughtful, and laden with representation of well written characters.

It’s why I had the highest hopes for RTD returning, he gets why representation is important but also why strong writing is key. He’s like the BBC’s golden child.

Guess he’s just gone a little far off in the deep end recently, but even his more recent work is well written. This recent episode of DW is such an anomaly.

All comments from YouTube:

@tylergoodman3560

21w↑570

True art: Stands the test of time for generations to come.
The message: Irrelevant after a few days and inspires no one. 🎉

@chasehedges6775

21w↑13

THIS💯👍💯💯

@chasehedges6775

21w↑9

Absolutely true.

@archstanton9073

21w↑14

But think of all the lives it saves! 🤣

@blairreese3534

21w↑21

This is 100% spot on. It's because it is propaganda.

@leonardodavi2695

21w↑32

True art: brings people together.

The message: divides them.

25 More Replies...

@MS-sb9ov

21w↑79

The wheelchair paranoia is like a phobic person putting doubt in otherwise sane minds. Davis and others are convincing themselves that there are shadows where none actually exist.

@teagame1011

21w↑13

It's weird seeing phobic used in it's correct definition of 'irrational fear' for once,
rather than mis-attributed to "measured, well reasoned, threat identification and response"

@sirloin8745

21w↑693

‘We have to hire people within this specific group’
Isn’t that racism - not hiring the person best able to fill the role, but discriminating against an something they can’t control; an actor’s race, creed or colour?

@sirloin8745

21w↑66

Where does this logically end?
You have to represent every country on the Planet to ensure ‘inclusivity’? 🤦‍♂️

@TotallyNotSnowman

21w↑52

Hypocrisy, thy name is Hollywood.

@dirtyfunkymonkey

21w↑42

It's discrimination for sure

@Gianfranco_69

21w↑11

I was on 'the road to Hell' the other day, i am sure it passed thru 'proportional representation'

39 More Replies...

@ramblingRJ

21w↑510

Why are people rewriting history and acting like Russell T. Davis wasn't always like this? This guy was attacking fans online before it was common for the industry to attack the fans. Almost 20 years ago, whenever fans complained about badly written episodes ( Like "Love & Monsters") he lashed out, calling us "Internet mosquitoes" and "fake fans". He's overrated as a writer, and he was at the forefront of abusing the fans.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑73

Sounds EXACTLY LIKE Dave Filoni. He was always a mediocre Star Wars writer.

@2012sonora

21w↑67

It’s like the love George Lucas gets now, when people were genuinely furious with him for a long, long time.

RTD was always woke. I think a lot of people who enjoyed New Who were probably still left of center ten years ago, and didn’t see what was going on because they agreed with it. But just because you get off the crazy train doesn’t mean everyone does.

RTD started in the same place as a lot of other people. He’s just going further with it.

@GiovanniAlckmimRusso

21w↑33

@@2012sonorathe same can be said about Star Trek. I saw Drinker saying how Star Trek wasn't woke, but I've been watching The Next Generation and there are some stuff that was already pandering to these guys. Like Capitalism being bad, frontiers on Earth doesn't exist, eating organic meat is bad, guys wearing female officers dress.

@southerner66

21w↑27

RTD has been very vocal about gender ideology these past few years, so, no, it's not a surprise. No one had heard of any of this in 2005 when he rebooted the series. Perhaps it has to do with what he's allowed to get away with by the BBC.

@mikavirtanen7029

21w↑26

@@GiovanniAlckmimRusso That was mostly during the first two seasons of TNG, when already senile Roddenberry and his hatchet lawyer Leonard Maizhlish went full retard with "progressivenes" and terrorized every writer to comply with their "rules". This may seem cruel to say but thankfully Roddenberry was out because of health reasons by season 3, and Rick Berman could hire Michael Piller to save the ship.

46 More Replies...

@garym6315

21w↑356

Well done to Despot for mentioning the diversity QUOTA. HeelvsBabyface often calls this a diversity policy but we need to be clear that this is an actual quota for how many disabled/gay/black/trans people NEED to be in positions behind and in front of the cameras.
And as we all know, when do you ever get a manager who strives to JUST fulfil the quota and leave it at that? Every manager wants to show off by showing they can go well beyond the figure that is given to them.

@robbo_96

21w↑25

Yeah that's the real issue for me, they hire crew members based on race or gender rather than merit or capability. Having a largely ethnic cast or a trans person in a role doesn't diminish the product's quality in of itself, but having a production/scriptwriting team that lack the quality or skills to tell a good story or one that uses nuance to convey the message does

@jdenney

21w↑12

Coming now from the makers of The Message™ is: The Quota™

@nojuanatall3281

21w↑12

The diversity hires barely lasted two days at my last job. Meanwhile I was there for a year and a half. That is a lot of training pay wasted.

@lancebaylis3169

21w↑10

I remember the 'policy', on it's introduction to the public, used one of the BBC's most popular programmes -- The Great British Bakeoff -- as a cover photo, as it was a format where they knew this kind of positive discrimination could be applied easily under the banner of "diversity & representation". It is not coincidental that the choice of contestants ever since has always felt like a checklist, nor that the "winners" have also been skewed towards marginalised groups.

See, this is the problem with enacting policies like this. It makes it harder, as an audience, to buy into the authencity of what we're watching. Because it all feels very much like everything we see on screen is even more manufactured than it already was.

@michaelplowman8674

21w↑10

"We've noticed you only have 17 pieces of flair."
"Well, that's the required amount."
"We know, but why can't you be like Charlie, who has 38 pieces of flair?"
"Because Charlie is a weirdo."

4 More Replies...

@FadingMemories

21w↑161

All Russel T Davies had to do was not explain why he was using an 'earlier instance' of Davros. If he had just shown Davros earlier in his life people would have been mildly disappointed at worst, hoping to see the iconic look. But RTD is a man who thrives on validation. He needs people to see his motivations and judge him justly by them. He knows that if he says the original version of Davros's design is offensive, he is forever locking this version of Davros in as no future showrunner can use the older version without being judged by it. This Davros, his Davros, is now /the/ Davros.

He also could have trimmed the 'male presenting doctors just wouldn't understand' line from his script and all the reception would have been tolerable as well. But he desperately needed to add that in, knowing fully well it would fan the flames of outrage instead of delivering a very forgettable episode of Doctor Who.

I wish he would stop sabotaging the show in order to build himself up.

@stm32discovery

21w↑24

It's just bilge. I never thought of Davros as being in a wheelchair. I saw him as someone smashed up by a fight he promoted. Whereas say Professor Xavier in the X-Men is a "ultra modern wheelchair"

@garylancaster8612

21w↑18

So almost the dictionary definition of virtue signalling then?

@YaBoiJoosh

21w↑8

downside is the episode won't be forgettable, because people will remember it as the episode where they only care about The Message

@TheBanshee90

21w↑2

Reminds me of Shane Gillis joke about right wing and left wing Twitter. Right wing is bitching about Colin kaepernick and left wing is just I'm not racist. These people can't just be not racist they have to broadcast it 24-7.

3 More Replies...

@scottdawe1425

21w↑60

Russel T Davis produced Queer as Folk back in the 90's that had two of the main characters a 15 year old boy and a 29 year old man having sex without any thought that this was both immoral and illegal and used it to "celebrate" Manchester's gay scene. It was a very toxic horrible show. RTD is not someone who has any right to dictate morals to other people.

@hey-lk3zm

21w↑3

it was 18 and 30 in the american remake

@kjp4250

20w↑3

Charlie Hunnam played the teen in Queer as Folk and he was over 18 at the time of filming. The later show Skins was arguably more objectionable because many of the teen actors were younger than 18 like Kaya Scodelario, who was just 14 when she played a sexually active teen.

@Othillde

20w↑1

@@kjp4250 they're both objectional. I don't care if they got an adult to play a child. If the character is a child, it's messed up for them to have sex with an adult character.

2 More Replies...

@davidgustafik7968

21w↑298

After all of the previous franchises "improved", I don't really feel anything concerning what Doctor Who has become at this point. That's the saddest possible result, I can't even bring myself to care for something that influenced me greatly in the past. I think this is what it would be like during a zombie apocalypse - when it starts and you see your neighbor, old Mrs Smith turned into a brainless zombie, shuffling around, it hurts, it's a tragedy beyond compare, you lament the loss. By the second year, you just see your old childhood friend zombying around and just roll your eyes before getting out the crowbar.

@greenhat8978

21w↑39

Out of all the zombie Apocalypse movies I've ever seen, You may have just described the most depressing one....😢

@Calebgoblin

21w↑25

gonna be real with you chief that hurted

@soulfirez4270

21w↑15

Yeah I think you have nailed it.

@cyberleaderandy1

21w↑16

Agree totally. I had intended to watch these specials but was busy last Saturday and didn't see it. Having seen the reviews online I now never will as it depressed me totally just seeing the clips and the garbage propoganda that rtd had written and the bbc allowed to be broadcast.

@smol_pupper123

21w↑27

That's how I felt with Star Wars. Just a deep sense of apathy where I even found it hard to care for the older stuff in the franchise I used to love so much.

12 More Replies...

@JohnGardnerAlhadis

21w↑99

When I first heard about Amazon's quota rules, I thought "No way. This has to be a joke, right?" But then I checked for myself and—yup—it's all there! I couldn't believe it. It's like parody and reality have intertwined.

@LITE992

21w↑18

It’s the kind of thing that would have been mocked in the 2000’s

@JohnGardnerAlhadis

21w↑3

@@LITE992 Exactly. Now it's the norm... 🤯

@SirBlackReeds

21w↑2

What do you expect from Jeff Bezos?

@JohnGardnerAlhadis

21w↑5

@@SirBlackReeds I expect him to blow money on pointless shit like Rings of Power and space tourism for his fellow elites, and not to pretend like he gives a shit about the 99%.

@Fiasco3

21w

Ya they have a list of companies. The more 'woke' you are the more they advertise you and give you money.

@fernandosanchezm

21w↑98

I say this as an artist myself, every art has a message, but there is a line between art and propaganda, whereas arte push you to think, propaganda tries to think for you

@TheChadPad

21w↑5

I like that. Good art tells you the why of something. Propaganda just tells you the what and hopes you accept it

@innocentsmith6091

20w

Good art is propaganda for goodness, truth, and beauty.

@aldunlop4622

20w

Precisely.

@FlaccidWeiner271

20w

Precisely what was being propagandized?

@iceprism367

20w↑1

I've noticed art tends to pose a question and give multiple answers you can think about for yourself while propaganda only gives you one answer that is THE ONLY ONE THAT IS ACCEPTABLE while any other answer is demonized.

3 More Replies...

@RampantDaydream

21w↑148

Just when you think we’ve hit ‘peak woke’ a new low is unearthed. Dr Who is a new low.

@wvanyar1801

21w↑7

Nope, Dr Who has not hit a new low yet. Wait for the viewership drop after the specials are done and Tenant leaves again.

@RamboSambo2350

21w↑2

Haven't seen anything yet. It will get a lot worse before it gets better

@davidgantenbein9362

21w↑1

@@RamboSambo2350As I always say „once woke is over, we will move to hyper woke and after that to giga woke … but after that it could be finally over“. So yeah, I prepare myself for another 5+ years of hyper woke, better feel safe then sorry here.

1 More Replies...

@robbo_96

21w↑56

The point that Mauler makes at the end is something Marvel used to do really well, namely in Civil War, in confronting the repercussions of your actions, regardless of how righteous you may think you are; the fact you're endangering innocent people is a big moral conundrum but it's testament to how unqualified these modern scriptwriters are that they wouldn't be able to tackle such weighty themes anymore, but are more concerned with telling their story - getting across their agenda.

@hope-cat4894

21w↑5

Because they don't want to think about the fallout that could come from their beliefs. That requires viewing the world through other perspectives.

@TheMasterQuests

21w↑2

They don’t want to think from other peoples point of view that’s the problem 💀

@kylewilson9260

21w↑230

Doctor Who was done forever the moment they said a show that started trying to teach kids history should have minorities in historically inaccurate places because it's better optics. Only multi-hair-colored furkins like Doctor Who now.

@daniel5412

21w↑28

Unpopular opinion, but I think you have David Tenant's first run to blame for that. I think that's where the Doctor became more about getting fangirls squeeing than being an intriguing sci-fi show about an advanced alien mentor interacting with less advanced humans. From there, snowballing into a megaphone for tumberlinas was probably inevitable.

@2012sonora

21w↑17

Yeah unfortunately the penetration of normie girls into these franchise canvases is really what did them in. Although this was about the time when a lot of college age girls decided that their fantasies needed to be social activism, so it’s hard to tell if Who was the catalyst or just an unfortunate victim.

RTD has always been super woke, though.

@daishikaze3986

21w↑19

@@daniel5412 I'll go one step further and say RTD and crew never understood Doctor Who. That may be why he tried to distance himself from as much classic lore as possible, make it so Gallifrey is gone, destroyed in a time war with the Daleks. The Daleks were mostly entirely wiped out in the same war. He rebooted the Cybermen entirely. Everything that had a history with the Doctor was jettisoned as much as he possibly could. Sure, he later walked a lot of it back, possibly because he didn't know where else to take it without at least some of those elements returning.

@indiajohnson

21w↑3

@@daishikaze3986Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw that.

2 More Replies...

@Lemon_Inspector

21w↑65

"He used to want to give children hope, now he just wants to scare them."
Ah, a surefire way to improve the world!

@Maddog3060

21w↑178

I don't think they're necessarily that dumb; I think they write heroes as villains because these woke writers are ACTUALLY EVIL.

@frankgesuele6298

21w↑14

Remember the truly evil believe they are good.

@FrostekFerenczy

21w↑1

No, that's just bonkers.

@stevesherman1743

21w↑3

@@frankgesuele6298 Right, they are so evil they can not possibly see reality … AS reality; they have to distort everything and their view of themselves as well.

1 More Replies...

@samanthacarmichael4380

21w↑20

RTD's 7th doctor novels from the 90s were also incredibly message heavy. When I read them in like 2012, I was shocked at how different the books read than his time as showrunner. So I'd argue that he's always been this way, but he held himself back during his initial TV run of doctor who.

@lancebaylis3169

21w↑6

He had co-producers from 2005-2010. I don't doubt they kept tighter reigns on what was editorially allowed. This time he's pretty much been given the keys and, based on a possibly unearned former reputation, been given total editorial freedom.

@cleanerben9636

21w↑529

I don't understand how big companies get away with this because I just had a very short Diversity and Inclusion course to do the other day and Diversity quotas are absolutely against the 2010 Equality Act. Why haven't we taken action against the BBC?

@Invie4196

21w↑82

need a judge to enforce the rules

@jimmyb.5356

21w↑126

Laws mean nothing if no one is willing to enforce it.

@John-kc4cg

21w↑65

Under British law they aren't. Brown made specific provisions that if it's against Whitie any discrimination is legal.

Look at the states where it is illegal and how long it took to apply the law to just universities.

@PulaskiSkater71

21w↑44

They get away with it through Larry fink, Black Rock and ESG.

44 More Replies...

@glados4765

21w↑53

When someone virtue signals that hard, I always wonder what kind of Cosby/Weinstein skeletons are they trying to run from?

@lancebaylis3169

21w↑13

I'm just going to remind everyone that Chris Eccleston, while being unwilling to name the perpetrators specifically, cited unprofessional behavior on set and bullying, and his flagging it up with producers only for them to do nothing, as a large reason he only did one season. David Tennant was always a plant and more of a 'yes man', and probably more willing to tolerate whatever Eccleston wasn't.

I will also point out that Eccleston went from praising Davies prior to production, talking about how impressed he was by Davies script for "The Second Coming" and how excited he was to be working with RTD again, to effectively never mentioning his name when talking about Doctor Who.

Supposition, yes. Reading between the lines, yes. But I'm willing to bet Russell T Davies has definitely got magnitude 10 level allegations that are leading to magnitude 11 forced virtue signalling now he's returned to the role of showrunner....

@JoeyM10

21w↑5

Pedophilia or closet bigotry

@qasimmir7117

20w

Saville.

2 More Replies...

@AsphodeliaD

21w↑44

John Keats said it best; "we hate poetry that seems to have a palpable design upon us...".

That these writers do not get that says pretty much every thing you need to know about their credentials as artists.

@harbl99

21w↑18

Russell T. Davies first big show was called Queer as Folk . It was about exactly what you think it was. He's always been an acolyte of The Message; at this point he's practically an apostle of it.

@kjp4250

20w

Do you think every show centred around gay people is inherently politically loaded? Queer as Folk was actually one of the first TV dramas ever to portray gay people in a frank and honest way, as opposed to the constant negative stereotypes of previous decades.

@langdalepaul

21w↑14

Getting people to self-censor is precisely their objective. They see it as the natural consequence of “educating” the masses.

@JackBurton-qp4hc

21w↑1

^THIS^ needs more upvotes.

@tobyflagg8058

21w↑112

Don't kid yourself and stan for David Tennant, he's as woke and engrained in the ideology as they come. Has been for years. Peter Capaldi, Christopher Eccleston and to a lesser extent Matt Smith would have took a huge shat over that script and turned it down.

@DoodleThis

21w↑24

God bless Matt Smith

@TheBigPicture2020

21w↑9

Christopher Eccleston would sing the praises of the script before ever watching this episode because of the ideology being featured. He's an incredibly talented actor (has been a favourite of mine for years), but he heavily leans towards the inclusion policy of Doctor Who to the point of blindness.

@tomnorton4277

21w↑27

@@TheBigPicture2020 If Christopher Ecclestone was blind, he wouldn't have been so passionate about helping the less fortunate members of Season 1's production staff. Watch his interviews. He said that playing the Doctor was an honour but he couldn't stand the toxic environment, praising the production crew for their hard work but furious that he couldn't so anything to improve their working conditions. That's why he quit. He was nearly 20 years ahead of the curve because he realised that Russel T Davies is the scum of the earth long before Davies exposed himself to the rest of the world.

@pogmothoin00001

21w↑3

*Peter Capaldi

@tobyflagg8058

21w↑2

@@pogmothoin00001 Edited and thanks 👍

11 More Replies...

@sillypuppy5940

21w↑29

Once we get to a point where only a certain demographic can be the villain, there is no scope for hiding that villain, especially if we have diversity quotas. For instance, in a whodunnit, diversity and wokery will eliminate most of the suspects at the start, leaving a choice between the two straight white healthy men. Then we discover that one of them has an invisible disability and bob's your uncle, the mystery is solved in ten minutes flat. Goodness knows what the rest of the show will be. Strong women degrading men?

@johndoe-lp9my

21w↑1

That show was called Law & Order.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑110

People in the US: Hate Modern Disney
People in The UK: Hate the Modern BBC.
Our society is so screwed on both fronts.

@fabesey2016

21w↑10

It's cringe TV, not a dire threat to civilisation, chill.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑15

@@fabesey2016 That’s precisely the problem tho.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑15

@@fabesey2016 Then we need better movies and tv shows that teach good lessons and values to children and younger and older adults.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑1

@@DorisDay-lw4xs Probably so.

@fabesey2016

21w↑2

@@chasehedges6775 I'm not sure there's any more garbage than 20 years ago. The main difference is that it's lame superhero movies and weird corporate pandering instead of the same 3 formulas being recycled in bad summer comedies.

13 More Replies...

@neilgodwin6531

21w↑12

The "male presenting Time Lord" crack reminds me of Jen's attack on Bruce in She-Hulk "I have to (control my temper) INFINITELY MORE THAN YOU"
He can't "let go"? He's been through the Time War. Committed genocide, or believed he had, to end that war.
And a temp from Chiswick and a teenager are belittling him, and all those with a penis.
My grandfather couldn't "let go" of his experiences in two World Wars and died with PTSD. Don't tell me about "letting go"

@eerielamp

20w↑3

Your last sentence should have been what The Doctor responded with.
I'm sorry for you and him, and anyone in between with that very real pain. 😢

What a husk of its former glory this show has become.

@Booma4142

21w↑37

People go along with THE MESSAGE because they think their alone. That they are the only ones who think what their seeing is ridiculous, insane, or just plain wrong. Because they've watched when others have spoken up and been destroyed afterward. So they keep quiet and go along with it. But the people keeping quiet are starting to realize they aren't alone, and may in fact be in the majority.

@YaBoiJoosh

21w↑8

a lot of people also feel like they have no choice but to agree with the ideology or The Message, or they feel like they're forced into being an ally. It makes me wonder how many Doctor Who YouTubers actually believe this stuff, or if they feel like they have no choice but to agree because otherwise there's backlash and a loss of subs and viewers.

@ANonymous-mo6xp

21w↑10

Just the Drinkers intonation of "THE MESSAGE" is an incredibly valuable pushback in the culture war.

@JoeyM10

21w↑3

I’m so glad I read this comment. Thank you.

For a while I thought I was the only one who really noticed it, maybe outside a small handful of people I knew who noticed but it didn’t bother them too much. I’ve been much happier (if that’s even the right word) to see that there are MANY others who it pisses off as much as me.

@graye2799

21w↑3

Well this is what happens when it's impossible due to laws to gatekeep against these people.

1 More Replies...

@SheldonAdama17

21w↑26

LMAO at anyone who thought RTD was going to save the franchise like old times. He’ll just do whatever his BBC bosses tell him to.

@domkilluminati1036

21w↑2

Exactly, they got played...RTD even said he was gonna carry on the ideology from Jodie Whitaker

@EddGorenstein

20w↑5

But that's the point - the BBC bosses aren't telling him to do this. He wants to do it. He's a propagandist who believes he's doing good. And he's got enough power to be able to order the BBC around. Video on my channel goes into this.

@troo_6656

21w↑35

The sheer disappointment in Mauler's voice is so palpable. You can tell just how tired he is of seeing this play out. How annoyed and disappointed he is in R.T.D. and how done he is at this point

@hope-cat4894

21w↑26

What's happening right now is that we are watching a new version of the Motion Picture Production Code (Hayes Code) that lasted from 1934 to 1968 in Hollywood. Once you realize that, it all makes sense. But they don't want to be compared to that era because it makes them sound like the people they rebelled against decades ago. They have become the new moral guardians.

@sturkster

21w↑4

That's a very good comparison.

@coconut7joemanji

21w↑28

Whenever someone, especially in the media, starts spouting off about these types of issues and has gone from being pretty chill to an annoying propagandist. It’s usually because something has changed in their personal lives. It could be a wife, child, partner, family member, new friends, etc… You see it all the time. Bill Burr springs to mind.

@nojuanatall3281

21w↑2

Bill Burr thinks he is the smartest person in the room but his life is closer to a Truman show curiosity.

@frankspeakmore7104

21w↑56

Another YouTuber saw this episode and he suggested that people who watch reviews on YouTube and understand the message that the film industry and the BBC are pushing wokeism and the message is to just walk away from it. Don't engage, don't push back don't comment on social media, if this happened then the low numbers would really stand out, but they couldn't point the finger. That would be very effective.

@clayjohanson

21w↑27

That was Dave Cullen, and he was absolutely correct.

“Doctor Who” is dead. Let the corpse rot and move on.

@b_g_c3281

21w↑12

Starve it....

@zaleost

21w↑4

@@clayjohanson For quite a while now I've been thinking a very similar thing about both the show and the BBC in general.

@YaBoiJoosh

21w↑10

I fully don't agree with this message. Because you'd end up having only people who agree with you and only people who encourage it, you kinda need people to say "this isn't good enough try to avoid it next time"

@MiseRaen

21w↑4

@frankspeakmore7104 As a commentator that is pretty much admitting defeat because they are the ones pushing back against the intentional shift of entertainment messages. If there is no pushback then they would just continue with their foolish decisions.

Its different if youre just an ordinary viewer and you are sick of the message. Its best to walk away and it your right.

5 More Replies...

@argenthellion

21w↑5

The worst part about this clusterfuck is that some people genuinely believed David Tennant would stand for Doctor Who, not join the dumpsterfire. I vividly remember my mother gleefully smiling when David Tennant's return was revealed and I told her not to get her hopes up. This is just one of those instances when saying "I told you so" would only make matters worse

@Hoganply

21w↑25

The writers' and directors' treatment of redux tennant is effectively an expression of how they feel about detransitioners, especially male ones.

@braceforgaming

21w↑23

It's been said before, but even making storm troopers kidnapped victims and kids that were brainwashed in The Force Awakens thanks to Fin's explanation. . Only for us to watch them die by the hundreds or thousands in following scenes and future movies and we're supposed to cheer?

@NinjaFreak380

21w↑9

Agreed. They should have made Finn's plot in the future movies all about trying to break everyone's programming like him. Probably would have been a happier ending in that final movie as opposed to just killing everyone in First Order.

@TheKpa11

21w↑6

I suppose they could have just made them clones again.

Course the same principle of “Oh they’re only clones, so they are expendable, it’s totally fine to be killing them” would inevitably come up again. And combined with the tone of those movies, it would still be jarring

@LITE992

21w↑4

That’s what you can expect from a modern writer. Just a tiny acknowledgment of nuance that is forgotten in a scene.

@sshipm1

21w↑26

They are looking out for their own ability to get work over everything. RTD has done nothing since leaving Dr Who so he may have gotten a little sweetener in his contract (development deal) and he doesnt have to be told what to do, he knows. Actors will back stab their best friends for roles, so a little kissing the ring for them is childs play. They all know that you keep the higher ups happy first (see the whole Weinstein saga) and when the crap hits the fan you act shocked and say you where forced to do this stuff. They are still itinerant carny workers at heart.

@cha0tr0pic

21w↑1

"Done nothing"?! His career has been amazing since Doctor Who... he's done his best work by far!

@SteveyTheEx-Eevee

21w

@@cha0tr0pic such as?

@bobsagat1322

21w↑4

The thing you mentioned about experimenting reminded me of the movie Ready Player One where they said something like "We've discovered that we can cover 85% of the viewing area with out inducing seizures." The entertainment industry is literally becoming IOI from the movie 😂

@jeremygeorgia4943

21w↑5

Personally, I think that the return was a Wishmaster move, and the special was literally them gloating, "Be careful what you wish for." They have heard for a while that people didn't like the current run of DW, and some of the themes that kept recurring was the wish that RTD and Tennant would return. I think they then said to themselves, "You'd like that eh? You think that would really change the show into something that you, my garbage fan would like? Well, we'll see. Let's give you what you want, and see how you really like it. You undesirable trash fans have no more allies in this industry ☆loud supervillain laugh☆ " It's a Douglas Quaid standing in the same frame with Cohaagen moment.

If you notice, Doctor 10 basically said that Jodie was better than him, just because he was a biological woman, then. Donna also said something similar She basically said that D10, as a male would never be as good as a woman. Which is something Rowling got in trouble for. They are completely renouncing and repudiating what went before, and they are using D10ant as the representative/stand-in for OLD DW. "We reject your timeline, and replace it with our own."

@lance134679

21w↑5

Despot really got to the heart of the issue with modern writing and why shows suck so hard. There is an inescapable weight of so many hurdles that get in the way of creativity and hiring the best people, almost like the layers of bureaucracy that bog down governments from being agile and efficient. Everyone at every level is giving notes about everything from major plot points to the minutia. It's wonder anything ever turns out halfway decent.

@DianeCee57

21w↑11

This was an excellent line up & great discussion.

@charliegreyfriars3691

21w↑26

Keep calling this crap out. It's genuinely disturbing what the BBC is getting away with. ✊

@samdirichlet7500

21w↑5

Disparu saying. "It would be so easy to get it right," reminded me of the recent adaptation, "The Watch," of some of Pratchett's discworld characters. They had Cherry Littlebottom who was a very, very smart fantasy-based allegory Pratchett created for feeling like an outsider because of who you are (gay, trans, etc...). Pratchett laid it out perfectly. AND THEY FUCKED IT UP! They just put a tall guy in a dress and a wig and said, "Dwarves can look any way." It was such an unforced act of stupidity that plainly undermined what I assume they were hoping to achieve.

@ElliotThereal

20w↑2

Disparu said exactly what I was quietly saying outloud to myself the other day as Youtube was trying to encourage my thoughts in a certain direction... it would be SOOO easy to get this right... that we're not even looking for something cutting edge amazing, we just want a good well-written story without the unending layers of modern cringe...movies and shows have stopped telling memorable tales and are relegating themselves to lectures and HR videos at a grand scale.

@theherbologer

21w↑9

I think you guys missed a great point with the Amazon Stufios rules; writing a story for them is now formulaic, and will produce the same show more often than not. And Amazon isn't the only studio to do this, assumedly. And we've seen the formulaic shows-thats why your channels exist at this point. You just proved how and why media has gone to crap, in am empirical way.

@peter_schomus

21w↑5

11:42 that unspoken "policy" of having a woman director for women cast actors is exactly what universities teach. My friend who goes to University of Oregon for film has that exact take. Verbatim.

@Vonononie

19w

I think there’s an underlying good reason for this that’s been lost. How many times do we have to sit through a film where either the woman is a talking pair of boobies, or she’s been written and directed as a man, as the director has nothing more to offer?
This is how we end up with a film where a woman fights off 5 men, outruns the men, flips a car, and then knocks back a whiskey. The director then says “I gave you a strong female character” completely missing the point, and all they’ve done is change a Jason Statham role to female.
But this situation isn’t going to be solved just by flipping the director, it might help sometimes but it’s a bigger issue.
Case in point, Weinstein championed female directors and female leads as he would force them to put in full nudity, and make them ‘work’ for the parts, he enjoyed his power over them

@scottcheg9

21w↑6

You know why the “something a male presenting time lord” dialogue really gets under my skin?
Remember that Time the Doctor took the entire time vortex into himself to save rose? More power and time than either of them could even fathom but vagina so we smarter (there is no emoji apt enough to expresses my anguish and distain)

@Vonononie

19w

But it’s about ‘presenting’ so the V-G hasn’t got anything to do with it. It’s whether you wear male or female clothes and what pro noun you use. So the power of the time lords is managed with skirts and calling someone she…IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!

@scottcheg9

19w

@@Vonononie I don’t care!

@Sinsteel

21w↑6

I honestly believe the political messaging is completely the point, and they're more than willing to lose money to do it - as you can see. They think that the political and societal shifts will pay it all off in the long run (and also it's shareholders money anyway).

@eddobh

21w↑3

You guys nailed at the end. The writers trying to appease the mythical "modern audience" seem to not understand the genre they are supposed to make more inclusive. Would not say that about RTD, but people behind MCU, Disney's Star Wars, RoP and others doesn't know what makes a action-adventure or a sci-fi film or series work.

@BlueBoxRevan

21w↑5

Russell T gets wayyyyy to much credit. Much like Rodenberry, they ultimately launched an awesome vehicle. But the best episodes were created by writers that never get credit. Russell takes allll the credit simply because he was the guy that got the 2005 greenlit and laid the initial ground for it to be possible. The real Russell T was the reason why Eccelston tapped out of the show super early on. Keep that in mind

@GUNMETALGUYUSA

21w↑9

Great Conversation. All Valid Points. Today's society values virtue signaling over artistic legacy.

@summer7603

21w↑27

Can't spell Reeturd without RTD
I think he just took his mask off after all these years under people who reigned his worst in he has finally embraced his inner scum and found a willing buyer for it in Disney to exploit this opportunity to do what he always wanted.

@SonicGirlsGeek

20w↑3

FINALLY someone mentions Georgia, she has been leeching off of David's fame since they got married, inserting herself into Dr. Who drama with the flimsiest excuses, and its very obvious she's pushing "the message" more than him (there was a time where she was practically glued to twitter). I'm sure he's on her side most of the time, David's hardly being held hostage, but there is no way half of the stuff he's agreed to or said over the last decade weren't at least partially due to her "encouragement"

@eerielamp

20w

Ah so she WANTED him to kiss Sheen. Got it!

@SonicGirlsGeek

20w↑1

@@eerielamp Hey, I did say half of the stuff, something tells me he didn't need much convincing with that one lol

@eerielamp

20w

@@SonicGirlsGeek lol. guess it really wasn't that far below the surface, huh? 😂

@DeistPaladin

21w↑7

On that very last note, there seems to be an attitude among these horrible writers that unnamed characters are just pixels on a video game screen. Their deaths have neither moral nor emotional weight.

@awsomestuff583

21w↑2

If there was no shout out to Wilfred Mott’s character/the actor (whom passed away), thats absolutely atrocious. He was amazing and all the stories I’ve heard about him intervening in the writing of his character are amazing.

@johnleonard9102

21w↑7

That Blackrock money must be the most massive stockpile of money ever conceived; how else could companies afford to continually lose money on garbage products like this?

@dalevintage

21w↑5

Davies has always been this way. Think about Torchwood. He was explicit about the importance of representation and challenging the "status quo". This is totally in his wheelhouse.

@jeancaron9325

21w↑25

Art and Good stories will always Trump Over The Message.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑2

💯💯💯👍👍.

@JohnGardnerAlhadis

21w↑2

lol, Trump

@randomcenturion7264

21w↑4

12:54 Spot on. We have a bunch of villains wondering why the Hell no one thinks they're "Heroic."

@spheremulticorp

21w↑4

Pretty confident that Mauler is right and this is us seeing RTD unshackled and finally allowed to go as far with his propaganda. There's plenty of interviews with him talking about using shows as vehicles for this views.

@phillmac3951

20w↑1

Never look at someone in a wheel chair as evil, but now he pointed it out you can see it 😂

@jameskirkland1899

21w↑4

I think what's worse is they think having a message means having a political message when it really can just be a universal theme that everyone knows and relate to James Cameron was the best at this he's gotten a little heavy handed with the Avatar movies but like Aliens for example is a movie that at the heart of it is about motherhood thats why it's still able to connect with people along with the effects the sooner they realize that a movie isn't going to be able to solve the worlds problems but can still provide lessons you can apply to your own life the sooner we'll get better writing

@mattjenkins81

21w↑2

You've hit the nail on the head Drinker. It seems the moral conundrum, ethical implications and even simple character story arcs are none existent in these modern scriptwriters arsenal. It reminds me of a conversation I had with my 8 year old, who saw some news coverage regarding the Israel and Palenstine war and he asked, who are the bad guys?

@mikzpwnz_3199

20w↑2

It's kinda why i would never dare put transgenderism in a show about time travel. Mainly because the principles behind it and medical technology gets to the point similar to the IPad, where an iteration of the transition procedure is such a universal success that every previous iteration would be viewed as a failure in one aspect or another like how we find attempts at tablet computers before the Ipad to be failures. There is aslo the "retrofitting" problem where improving the previous iterations to be like the new one becomes impossible dur to the issues with system architecture and engineering that you have to start from scratch, something you cant really do with a person undergone medical surgery.

These implications while being an eventual reality (and thus pose a good question for sci-fi) would mean that there leads to a bloodbath that would make it impossible to write without getting cancelled. Such a limiting factor on creativity that you cant realy do anything with it so i personally leave it out.

@eerielamp

20w

@@mikzpwnz_3199love this analysis.

@jspaingreene6350

20w

Great panel... Love Disparu and Little Platoon.... Always happy when they're on

@RosiG73

21w↑10

While Tennant is onboard with the woke politics, I think he looked miserable because he really loves the Doctor and at his core abhorred the Doctor’s treatment in that episode.

@jaykay2365

21w↑8

If he loved the doctor, he never would have agreed to that script.

@RosiG73

21w↑5

@@jaykay2365 There’s interviews where he admits he’ll do any role for money.

@witchfinder-gen

21w↑54

So long as BBC has tax-payer funding, we all know which one they'll focus on...

@-yeme-

21w↑6

its not funded via taxation; I'm obviously a taxpayer but they don't get anything from me because I don't have a TV so I don't buy a license. but frankly I think the funding mechanism is beside the point, there are plenty of media organisations from TV channels, streaming services and film studios that are entirely commercially funded which churn out the same slop.

@chronicles8324

21w↑3

correct, they dont need to compete

@alexedwards6509

21w↑5

Don't think of it as taxpayer funded. It is more like government sanctioned extortion. Pay us £175 or else.

@witchfinder-gen

21w

@@alexedwards6509 well said

@dinoblacklane1640

21w

@@-yeme- oh my god, the UK you literally need a license for your tv, what the fuck

2 More Replies...

@Windstorm7x7-wl8ko

21w↑7

News Flash; "The Message" has been in TV and film longer than you think, you just haven't noticed because it's been dolled out in snippets. Over the last 5 years the perveyors have boldly pushed forward thinking it was time. The challenge now that it hasn't caught on as desired is to as you say " discover just how much can be inserted without completely destroying the entertainment value." Your challenge is to catch them in the act and discern for a normal audience just how insidious this tactic is and alert them to the dangers of supporting it. Diluted pollution is still pollution.

@Snoop_Dugg

21w↑4

It's definitely been there since the 90's... Except can then they had competent writers where it didn't detract from the plot

@JoeyM10

21w↑1

Agreed it’s definitely been around for a while and certainly also agree that it was not nearly as ubiquitous as it is now. Agree with the comment above mine as well that at least there were competent writers that wove it in rather than beat you over the head with it

1 More Replies...

@mathish1477

21w↑2

I was at QandA for a movie release last night, the directors said "We couldn't get funding for our film, because our script couldn't accommodate the diversity parameters".

@nagoranerides3150

21w↑3

The key here is that art can - and should - challenge the viewers' assumptions without telling them that if they don't agree then they are nazis.

There is no art of any value that doesn't reference contemporary society and politics - that in itself is not a problem at all.

@KilgoreTrout122

21w↑3

Russell T Davies has made fantastic episodes of Doctor Who and even better series like Torchwood Children of Earth, The Second Coming, Cucumber, and It’s a Sin. But he’s also made some pretty bad Doctor Who episodes throughout his tenure as head writer. Star Beast is kind of par for the course in terms of the shittier eps he’s penned. He’s always had a penchant for rushed plot resolution, unnecessarily large amounts of technobabble, and insufferably camp villains. And to be honest, a lot of Doctor Who episodes have those elements. As a Doctor Who fan, you kind of suffer thru those for the reallllllyyy amazing episodes, many of which RTD has written too.

@umwha

21w

It’s a sin was just saturated propaganda

@Moonlightgraeme

21w↑5

The she can't act line made me laugh so hard when I watched last week's DW, meta for sure 😂

@rebelrider3361

21w↑1

The end of this video makes me remember the first off feeling I got from the Star Wars Sequels. Fin started gleefully mowing down stormtroopers with no hesitation. He'd only wanted to desert to save his own skin because he had trouble killing a few minutes earlier. This made me feel something was off immediately because his actions made no sense. Even a few seconds of hesitation or a line where Poe would tell him he had to shoot would have helped.
People with no sense of morality can't write heroes. I think that's the root of the problem.

@CalOShaughnessy

20w

Drinker, it makes me very happy to see you've teamed up with Despot.

@TheSektorz

21w↑18

5:45 I like how it always has to come down to a line like this.

@ellugerdelacruz2555

21w↑9

He looks even more destroyed than Oscar Isaac after he said, "Somehow Palpatine returned..."

@keithmcdonnell3082

21w↑7

Art provides beauty. Graphic design provides a message.

@Avenus112

21w↑4

Davies wrote to entertain the viewers. Now he writes to entertain himself.

@Senpiezza

21w↑1

Really good contribution from Disparu and Despot in this vid. Great discussion

@ronsmith8424

21w↑4

Stephen Moffat is the true heart of Doctor Who. RTD hired Chibnall to do Torchwood and he destroyed Doctor Who. ESG messaging is not working

@jasonotto9126

21w

People hated hard on moffat. Yeah some of his pay off's in the over arching story were at times disappointing but his good episodes are great and definitely re watchable. I like Davies first run but love moffats

@fiction5559

20w↑1

Yeah, I have issues with Moffat (quite a lot of them), but I prefer Series 5 and 6 to all other Series in the modern show by A LOT! With RTD, even his better Series had a lot more issues than anything in Moffat's first 2 Series (I don't really like modern DW after Series 6 personally, gave up by the end of Series 7).

@jasonotto9126

20w↑1

@fiction5559 give capaldis first 2 seasons a watch. His good ones are great. Some of the best but the bad ones are complete unwatchable. In my eyes he's the final Dr.

@fiction5559

20w

@@jasonotto9126 Thanks for the recommendation, will try to watch them.

@jasonotto9126

20w↑1

@fiction5559 heaven sent is in my opinion thr best episode of new who. Possibly even of all time, again. In my opinion 😅

1 More Replies...

@martindenham2207

21w↑9

A way I've come to look at this whole thing is that if what you're selling requires the customer to be punished if they don't buy, then what you're selling clearly doesn't benefit the customer. So who does it benefit? The one selling of course. Not really a fair exchange.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑2

Exactly!

@chasehedges6775

21w↑1

Supply and demand at its most painful/disappointing.

@martindenham2207

21w↑2

@@chasehedges6775 True, but where is the demand coming from? Clearly not the general public audience, so is it their own echo chamber audience? If this is true, is it simply virtue signalling for their own peer group, with the general public audience (who also pay thanks to the licence fee) being left out in the cold? Is it the privileged elite simply pleasing themselves & those they hob-nob with at cocktail parties?

@chasehedges6775

21w↑1

@@martindenham2207 Probably nobody, except maybe the elite and corporate executives and money makers.

@chasehedges6775

21w↑1

@@martindenham2207 It’s definitely not for the general public or regular people.

4 More Replies...

@nendymion

21w↑3

If RTD really believes that people don't like trans people in media, perhaps he should look at why and find a way to fix it. As far as I can tell there really hasn't been any really good representation for that group in shows and it's because everytime they show up it's always with characters that have their own identity revolve around being trans or characters that come off as extremely condescending like with the recent special where the Dr. was derided for being a male. That's why people don't like them in shows or many movies.

It's the extremely hamfisted messaging that's hurting the group. RTD had the chance to provide better representation but instead chose to go with the default that's been used so often and is tiring. Hell it's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before. Just look at how gays were initially presented while not as overbearing or derisive they were tokenized and it took years before they got proper representation in media. So he even had lessons from the past to pull from. Why couldn't he put a bit of care into writing a group that he supposedly feels are being hated unjustly instead of falling back on a trope that is the very reason people don't like trans in media and that has been shown to backfire again and again instead of fostering understanding.

@tomjames9681

21w↑31

@sheablack311

21w↑8

As an American who has only ever seen a handful of Dr Who over the decades, it always struck me as super progressive. Woke wasn't a thing when i first saw it. Anyway i could never get past the Dr not having anything other then platonic relationships with his companion. Come on even Captain Picard got down.

@Archon_UA

21w

I don't think that Galadriel is bad character she is JUST representation level of scriptwriters.
And they go for strike demanding more benefits for their GODNESS writing.
Insane.
And more, we feed this beast, we raised it!

@bananonymouslastname5693

21w↑7

I have never enjoyed new Doctor Who. Even before it became what it is, the 1 hour timeslot made everything more formulaic, and it never felt like an extension of the classic series to me. When they started ret-conning things, I just stopped paying attention. Star Wars had already robbed me of some of my childhood joy, and I didn't want to not enjoy Tom Baker as much as I have in my life.

The Davros thing is extraordinarily stupid. It's not even a wheelchair- it's a life support machine, and he has artificially extended his life in the pursuit of knowledge, power, and the advancement of the Kaled race. He is withered because he refuses to die after far too many years. There's nothing disparaging to folks in wheelchairs in the characters. He's more of a cosmic WWII villain.

@hariman7727

21w

The one Chris Eccleston season was great.
Tennant's run was pretty good, but started showing its flaws.

@weareharbinger914

21w↑1

It always seems such a shame that people who actually aren't bad at their job deliberately making the things they are now in worse trying to garner social credit...and failing because nobody wanted it.
Yet they somehow don't realise that.

@callumsparrow4379

21w↑4

Modern writers are just ideological Cybermen:

“You belong to us. You shall be like us.”

- Cyber Controller, Tomb Of The Cybermen (1967)

@eerielamp

20w

And the other side of the cult: DI-VER-SI-TY! DIII-VEEER-SIII-TTYYYYYY!!!!

and the doctor (the character) is caught in the middle figuring out how to escape the battle between them.

@seanfoltz7645

21w↑7

If they're calling this one the "kid friendly" episode, what that means is that future ones are going to be triple X deviancy to the max.

@Bobthesnob

21w↑8

Great lineup. I'll have to find the full version of this...

@lance134679

21w↑1

Great panel on this Open Bar. I sure wouldn't want to be on the other side of any debate about entertainment against Mauler and Platoon. 😄

@HeavyMetalJesus02

21w↑3

I restarted watching the New series of Doctor Who with Christopher Eccleston. Davies' politics were always there under the surface. For example, i believe it was episode 7 or 9 that took place in 1941 England. The young mother and kids were stealing people's food while they were hiding in bomb shelters. Eccleston's doctor reacted by saying, "I love it. It's Marxism in action." It was definitely more subtle at the time.

*Correction in the comments Moffat wrote episode 9, "The Empty Child." Davies had executive producer credit.

@YaBoiJoosh

21w↑2

Honestly at least it wasn't related to those people's genders or pronouns

@RJALEXANDER777

21w↑6

Except that was a pretty fun and layered scene when you think about it. It was revealed that the owner of the home was capable of producing a full Sunday dinner in WWII London during the era of rationing, because he was friendly with the local butcher. So "friendly" in fact that he was in a gay relationship with said butcher and cheating on his wife. And imagine that, showing an LGBT character as having negative traits. This kind of politics usually works well when it's subtle and clever, not when it's clubbed unsubtly over people's heads.

@HeavyMetalJesus02

21w↑3

@RJALEXANDER777 Oh, I am not arguing against that. And I do have to make a correction. It was Steven Moffat that wrote that episode. Davies, funny enough, only has executive producer credit. Though considering the special with Tennant, it makes me wonder how much input Davies had on Moffat's script.

@LukSter18998

20w

@@HeavyMetalJesus02leering over his work like the happiness patrol

@HeavyMetalJesus02

20w

@LukSter18998 I'm not sure what you're saying. If you read the thread, I have no problem with subtlety. All I'm saying is that the politics were always there. If you think I'm trying to patrol happiness, then you misunderstood or failed to read the whole thread.

@sigmacademy

21w↑1

In the defense of The Marvels (and I can't believe I actually said that), superheroes across the entire comic book universe has been known to mess up PRETTY badly from time to time (to the point of it being an ACTUAL trope). Granted, it then fell on the shoulders of a capable writer of using that setup and give a reader a satisfying story that says how the hero or heroine would then FIX that mess, and the outcome might or might NOT be a positive one, and I'm not even including side effects or unintended consequences in that statement even.

@thatpatrickguy3446

20w↑1

Who knew that the Max Headroom show's somewhat ludicrous dystopian future they imagined 35 years ago was going to be so spot on? Edison Carter, where are you?

@Spartan_5271

21w↑4

Imagine saying that this episode was the one meant for kids and then proceeding to shove the idea into boys' that no matter what, you will always be inferior intellectually to girls. And it's even worse when you realize that they also say in such a condescending tone that they prefer the doctor when he used to be a woman because she was better. I'm sure that trans men loved hearing that

@drum-jitsu

21w↑2

Are they allowed artistic freedom anymore would be interesting to see if they have limitations

@yourfriendlycynic654

21w↑25

There is a slight misconception here that Disney has any creative control in Doctor Who, they don't. They just have a deal to air the show on Disney+ for those outside the UK, the show is still being produced by the BBC and Bad Wolf Productions. Not that this makes anything any better, since the BBC I'd argue love The Message more than Disney does, and we've seen what Russell's opinions are

@chasehedges6775

21w↑2

@@scorpixel1866 That’s terrifying and considering what’s happening at Disney

@martindenham2207

21w↑5

I was under the impression that Disney were contributing to the budget so that the show had a budget big enough to allow it to meet the requirements of a Disney+ show? Not sure where I heard that or if I'm misunderstanding though.

@yourfriendlycynic654

21w↑4

@@martindenham2207 That may be true, but I've not seen that anywhere myself. It just says it's being produced by the BBC and Badwolf in Wales

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@sweetie4915

21w↑8

Agreed, Modern 'cinema' is out of control and high time to make movies GREAT again! By the way, maybe someone can tell me if what I hear is true, is Will Jordan is married with kids? I hear some say he is and yet I also hear others that he had been but isn't married now. Which scenario is true? Anyway, thanks Drinker and looking forward to maybe seeing a Christmas special!

@AldrickExGladius

21w↑3

I'd say that if The Drinker isn't making this publicly known, that he doesn't want his family involved in what he does on the internet. Thats probably why we get to see the doggos and not the kiddos.

@sweetie4915

21w

@@AldrickExGladius Understood, but my confusion also stems from the fact that he says things about what it's like dating, and about other beautiful women and so on. He was on a stream with Chrissie Mayor and she asked what the women are like there and he said 'you basically have to take what you can get.' Then when she mentioned some woman who is known for being a 'looker' he got quite 'hot and bothered' about how pretty she is and how he wouldn't mind this particular actress at all. Makes me doubt he is a married man so that's why I'm not sure what to think.

@YaBoiJoosh

21w↑3

The worst part about The Star Beast is the fact that some of the LGBT community had a problem with the gender and pronouns scenes in the episode, you know an episode is bad if 1. The episode is about them and tries to spread their message and 2. The think the episode is bad because of the message they were trying to spread.

@umwha

21w↑3

I’m gay and let me clarify that we, as a collective, don’t have a ‘message’. Many gay people think homosexuality and transsexualism should be seperated (see the lgb alliance). Many gay people think transgenderism shouldn’t be promoted to kids (because most of us have been gender confused ourselves and got over it). And many people don’t believe that trans is a real thing at all.

@YaBoiJoosh

20w↑1

@@umwha This episode clearly wasn't about gay people, it was about trans people and their pronouns, the episode was bad because it focused too much on it. You say you're gay and I say "more power to you", live your life how you want, everyone deserves to have someone they love or someone they can do anything with... As for your last part about people not believing trans is a real thing... I'm gonna say this now, it's not a real thing, the trans label just existing is another way of saying this "I'm mentally ill with gender dysphoria and feel like I was born into the wrong sex, but instead I got this shitty label". The label also exists to show regular straight people like myself... that the character or person in question isn't the gender/sex they're trying to make people believe they are, I wouldn't date a trans woman, because I don't agree with the gender ideology and that's a biological man, as a heterosexual I'm attracted to the opposite sex, the keywords being "OPPOSITE SEX"

Idk if I took your message the wrong way or if I misread in areas, and if so I apologise, as it sounds like you're trying to say you're on my side, now that I'm properly giving your message a read through, however, I felt like I needed to say all of the things I said above, and do hope you see my points

@quatrinavr707

21w↑6

Either leave a hero, or live long enough to become the villain. RTD chose to become the villain

@programme9363

21w↑3

Art vs The Message will be especially evident with future Avengers films. With so many female protagonists, the message wont allow them to face real danger against a male antagonist. So fans will not experience any tension or concern during those fights. Can Kang stab Capt Marvel like Thanos did Tony? The MESSAGE says no

@Steggoleaf

21w↑1

This was the big thing I was looking forward too this year. Tennant and Tate with RTD back at the helm was meant to bring me back to the doctor who of my childhood and now it's been shattered to this SJW pandering nightmare

@Gonroamin

21w↑1

It just shows their desperation. Every time the show is in danger of cratering, they head back to Tennant begging him to come back to bump up viewer numbers. I hope he's realized that, and he makes good with it!

@bravefire1

21w↑1

It can all be summarized to..

1. Bad writing & execution
2. Disrespecting the Lore of IP - Forcing change into existing IPs/Franchise in hopes to convert current demography/fans.

Even with messaging, if done well and with a good story and execution on an original IP, it will still be a good film that might actually change people's opinions or at least widen their perspectives in varied degrees.

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