Peter Coffin is a comedian who has produced many satirical songs and videos… Read Full Bio ↴Peter Coffin is a comedian who has produced many satirical songs and videos, often spoofs of major pop artists' work. He is a self-described 'YouTube personality'. He joined in January 17, 2006 and reached the status of "#92 - Most Subscribed (All Time) - Comedians" as of June 2010.

His wife may also be a doll.

Steve Reich)
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Most interesting comments from YouTube:

Dave Weese

consuming anything that's packaged organic superfoods good for you ethically made is just a way for them to increase the value of the product. in other words it is adding value without adding amount or anything else because we the people believe is worth more. the only real ethical way to eat if you want to call that at allis to eat food grown locally infield that you can recognize and to cook your own fresh ingredients.

So long as you continue to eat packaged food you will continue to eat food full of chemicals, preservatives, and and whatever is cheapest at the moment. this is because prepackaged food is waste products full of chemicals in order for you to see it's as worth it.

Hence the price of organic food and other food considered healthy has increased their ability to charge more for Less. Americans have been brought up on incredibly disgusting food but because it's all we know we accept it as okay and even treat it as if it is how it should taste. hence I've met plenty of people that won't eat fresh food they always go towards prepared food because that's what they know.

So long as you eat any food that comes in packages you will pay for the packages more than the food as prepared food it's by far the cheapest food yet we spend more for it then fresh food. therefore the only food you can trust is food that is by the pound and has no labels.

Unfortunately even though this will be better for you health-wise and better for the planet to a degree it is not better for the people who are picking it, growing it, or selling it to corporations. that's why you should pick your own food which will save you money and buy locally from small businesses directly as any food that goes through corporate hands will reinforce our current system. currently the superfood craze has only given companies the ability to charge more sell different types of products two different classes of people. as with everything it starts out good like with me since I've never eaten meat as I'm a second-generation vegetarian. thus I was doing this long long long before it was cool. now it's been hijacked like normal to make richer people richer and to exclude poor people from being able to eat good food. as originally I could save money, lots of money by making food from scratch. nowadays it costs more then crappy food that's now yet again the poor getting screwed.

S.H.

5y↑4

This had me thinking about how important it is to not perpetuate bigotry in activism. And to keep unlearning all of that noise.

Like, how many environmentalists rail against easy-open packaging and plastic straws and the people who purchase such things. They may or may not realize such products are life-savers for disabled people and [intentionally or not] demonize them for needing this accessibility (these products are important for many's dignity and relative independence, for one).

One person using straws is a drop in the ocean. Industry (especially energy and agriculture) is where our collective attention should focus (in the case of environmentalism) - because they're the primary contributor to the mess we're in. The personal responsibility narrative can get insidious when we end up harming those with already less power, to gain that social capital.

It's fine if you, as an individual, would like to try to be as ethical as feasibly possible; there's is merit to "practicing what you preach." If everyone did and COULD do that, that would maybe make these consumption habits more impactful for your cause. But in our reality, it's only scratching the surface.

As far as the hows of making the real difference against industry-caused pollution - I admit I'm out of my depth. The main things that come to mind range from supporting labor unions and public transit, to becoming a politician, and to being conscientious investor/CEO (which would be a huge stretch to not be warped by capitalism once you reach such a position, let alone the fact that that is not exactly obtainable by the masses, but at least you WOULD have the power to do something more significantly impactful in how companies operate).

R B

5y↑6

One interesting point that I don't think really gets enough attention is how the ideals of veganism and/or environmentalism are not inherent within anticapitalist ideology. In the most perfect anarcho-communist world imaginable, you could possibly still have extensive animal exploitation, environmental degradation, and catastrophic climate change. Environmental and non-human resources do not traditionally fall under the purview of power dynamics in capitalism, and thus even in a system with no human exploitation, there may still be other forms of it.

There are people who can't or shouldn't eat vegan for various health and developmental reasons. There are necessary and ethically laudable uses of animals- things like making vaccines, feeding those with significant food allergies or other health needs, companion animals, and even beloved pets. There are also numerous ways to consume meat products which are essentially environmentally insignificant and with minimal ethical consequences. There are ways to power and feed the world without substantial environmental destruction for mining and agricultural resources. But they aren't INHERENT in any kind of anticapitalist worldview, and that's simply not good enough.

Yes, it's capitalism that's killing the planet. But if ExxonMobil, BHP Billiton, and GM became worker cooperatives tomorrow in a flourishing fully automated luxury gay space communist utopia, it would be FALGSC that would be killing the planet. The same is true of ethical food choices.

I'll sum it up clearly: capitalism does not ABSOLVE us of ethical choices.

It restricts our choices, that's all. A harried working class immigrant living as a wage slave in an underserviced community? Yeah dude, nobody should tell that person that they need to make ethical choices. Let them have their bacon or their halal snack pack or their chocolate milk. But if more ethical choices ARE available, it's simply lazy and wrong to not take them.

I know you're not talking about anticapitalist vegans and I share your critique that consumption choices are woefully insufficient, but by picking this point it feels so much like you're trying to justify your own choices. Moreover, it feels like an incomplete reading of the problems the world faces.

If you want to end exploitative power dynamics, that has to include the natural environment as well.

Aaliyah K

5y↑1

After multiple conversations, I convinced my libertarian boyfriend, who I will probably marry one day, that the current system has a problem. He believed in personal responsibility religiously. I took a different direction than usual: I created an anecdote about kids in the ghetto and used the Socratic method to guide him through the problem. After about 15 questions of “what should they do now?” He made a remark that some people are “wired differently”. I found the problem.

I lowered my voice, leaned in, found myself genuinely tearing up, and whispered to him, “I was one of those kids born in the ghetto”. Then I tied that statement back to a previous conversation we had about survival mode and how not having enough resources can cause your brain to wire differently. I did a research paper where I originally took the same stance as him until I saw a study that explained that concept to me.

At some point, I asked him what their reasonable actions would be. I used that question to introduce how the drug trade would seem viable to a young person in a downtrodden area. THEN I introduced business principles which kind of offended him: “Greater risk yields greater reward, correct?”

He said there was a “right way” to do things, like getting a job.

“Getting a job with a corporation that partakes in illegal activities is the right thing to do?”

We had a little more discourse, but I finally disrupted his thought process with one final question:

“Why should we arrest one misled teenager who is trying to get basic resources when there are corporations employing child workers overseas with no other motive than to line their pockets?”

His pupils dilated, his eyes fluttered, and his forehead vein that I affectionately call Angelina Jolie flexed.

“I have no answers... I have a lot to think about. You changed my perspective.”

Activism takes many forms. One of those is taking the time to explain your perspective to someone you love dearly. I believe it took 16 hours of conversation to get him to that epiphany. 16 hours on my part of restraining frustration, impatience, and sadness because I knew those things wouldn’t do any good. It’s still work for the cause and it feels good. Really good.

Now I’m introducing my mom to the subject through Thought Slime lol

Hazel Quantock

This is amazing, and has got me thinking a lot. But I can't quite wrap my head around it. (Forgive me, anti-capitalism is still relatively new to me and I have a lot of catching up to do.)

My inital understanding was that you're saying "trying to consume ethically makes no difference, because one day capitalism will fall and then it will all change", which is silly and surely means I've misunderstood. So, to understand better, I tried to lower the stakes a bit and think about examples I've seen within my own country (UK) and lifetime:

In the 90s, or thereabouts, there was a push for people to eat free range chicken and eggs, because of the cruelty of battery farming. This hugely impacted the market, to the extent that even McDonalds now proudly advertises free range chicken in their nuggets and eggs in their breakfasts. But it didn't end battery farming - there were still plenty of contexts where consumers wouldn't check for free ranges sources (eggs in mayonaise, food from non-chain restaurants). The thing that ended battery farming was regulation, caused, I believe, by the public outcry at the cruelty highlighted in the initial campaigns. Of course, being that we had (and have) a very pro-capitalist government, the laws just made the cages a little bigger, the suffering a little less, the bare minimum to call it a "ban".

But I still feel like the ethical consumption made a difference. Surely the total amount of chicken suffering was reduced by the fact that I literally cannot buy caged chicken in the supermarket (it became so unpopular that it wasn't worth stocking it). Surely reducing cruelty under capitalism by any means is a good thing, even if you participate in capitalism to do it? Whilst we're stuck with capitalism, organising consumer boycotts seems like it can make things slightly better.

And I don't think it necessarily hurts anti-capitalist causes, because (at least in my example) it can help people to recognise that the cruelty is a result of a lack of regulation.

Apologies if I'm being naive here, I genuinely want to learn.

Moyayaille

5y↑6

I'd say voting (or trying to get elected), demonstrating, handing out pamphlets, trying to get media attention (creating your own if needed) ... I mean, that's the usual stuff I suppose?
I wouldn't wait until the "system in line with marxist values has been established", 'cuz frankly I don't think it's happening anytime soon (and I'm not even sure that'd be such a good thing).
If we agree with Peter's view that individual responsablity ain't gonna change much then I suppose that you'll want to put laws in place? Of course the simplest way would be to have as many advocates for the cause be elected at a level where they'll have some amount of legislative power, but that is something that is often difficult to influence without large-scale movements.
What I would recommend would be to target media that is likely to influence people who are already in places of power. For example there probably isn't a point in trying to get Fox News to talk about veganism, because the person who will pass a law regulating meat production/import probably doesn"t watch Fox News.
Now I can't tell you which media would be the optimal for you because I am not familiar enough with U.S. media, but you should look for content aimed at the politically conscious upper class, maybe a radio, the kind of place where subject are often discussed for more than 45 minutes at a time, always mainly by guests who are experts on the topic. Probably state-funded, boring, and regularly engaging in balance fallacy. As a bonus, they probably read and take into consideration letters and e-mails that they receive from thier public, so you could probably influence their choice of subject by getting 20-30 people to each write a letter.
I'm drawing inspiration from the french radio "france culture", which is exaclty the kind of media that you'll want to target.
Hope that helps.

P.S.: also please try to use the argument about meat production f#cking up the environment more, it is way easier to make than the argument about animal well-being, where if the person doesn't already agree with you you'll probably need hours of discussion about ethics to change their mind.

Ben Drawer

5y↑1

I have similar issues to this video as I did with your video on "Vegans(tm)".

Basically, you're right that consumption is not enough. But you're wrong that it doesn't matter at all; at least when it comes to some issues like climate change and animal welfare (which I argue are two of the biggest issues in the world today), consumption is a significant piece of the overall puzzle.

You didn't treat the idea of "voting with your dollar" very charitably, at all. The point people are making by saying that is that demand affects supply. As I linked to on your Vegans video, some number-crunching has already been done on how many nonhuman animals are, in expectation, spared from an abject existence when somebody goes vegetarian or vegan: https://reducing-suffering.org/does-vegetarianism-make-a-difference/
Therefore, less demand -> less supply -> less animal suffering and greenhouse emissions. Maybe you can't regard this as "activism", but if the point of activism is to try and make the world better then this would still imply that activists should try and go vegan, possibly as one part of their activism.

I think you're also too dismissive of the ethical differences between products. Yes, "ethical" products usually still have ethical problems - but they have fewer problems. You're still improving things in expectation by consuming them over other, less ethical products. It does depend on the particular case - for example, using paper straws instead of plastic ones really is an insignificant gesture, but not flying or driving or eating meat is much more significant. Again, you're right that this kind of ethical consumption can't save the world on its own, but it also isn't meaningless: it is one aspect of what we need to do.

Brandin Shaeffer

4y↑1

Some things I know:
We are over fishing the oceans. If capitalism enthusiasts ate less fish that would create less demand.
Shrimping is one of the most destructive industries in fishing with an obscene amount of bycatch per lb of shrimp. If shopping addicts ate less shrimp that would create less destruction.
Over a quarter of the earth's land is used for grazing cattle.
40% of grain goes to feeding livestock...while millions literally starve.
Every new virus originates from factory farming. The newest 'Coronavirus' doesn't seem to be apocalyptic - but one will eventually come along that wipes out millions.
A vegan who knows absolutely nothing about capitalism, socialism, marxism, communism, economics in general STILL accomplishes some positivity for the planet.
Personally, I'm a zero waster who buys 2nd hand almost always....exceptions for things like shoes & undergarments. I finally cancelled my Amazon account and have been purchasing items I need (toothpaste, shampoo, etc.) at actual stores. I still have a long way to go on living more sustainably...namely riding a bike more, although it's terrifying here in los angeles.
But even if I was just a vegan, I believe that would be a net positive for the world & obviously for the animals.
Not everyone even has the mental capacity or time to learn about the things you're so well versed on.

Michael Ball-Blakely

I dig your stuff, and am sympathetic to the message. But I have a concern about the critique of “voting with your dollar”. This concern begins with an assumption (one I think I have seen you endorse): producing content is akin to producing a good, and consuming content is akin to consuming a good. Now, you as the producer ask us, as the consumer, to like and/or share your videos. The reason: you want us to consume your content in such a way that makes other people likely to consume it as well. You want us to increase the market share that your content covers by increasing the consumers who are aware of it. But this sounds a lot like voting your your dollar—or, rather, voting with your likes.

After all, when I advocate for people buying vegan goods, I do so in part because this diminishes the amount of animal products purchased, therefore contributing to a decrease in animals slaughtered. But I also do so because I believe that purchasing low-visibility vegan products increases the visibility of vegan alternatives. Much like liking your videos increases the visibility of your leftist alternative. The aim, at the end of the day, is to show people that non-meat options exist and to assist non-meat products in occupying a larger percentage of the market.

Now this, you might note, is still just playing the capitalist game. We’re only reallocating resources in a capitalist system. But the same is true of your videos. We are only reallocating resources in a capitalist system. Now ideally, within the parameters of consumption, we will reallocate to non-capitalist producers. To you (via the capitalist medium of youtube) and to small family owned farms. This still is not enough. But who cares. Nothing is.

This matters because you yourself noted that we each do our part. You make content. Making content, without someone acting on it, literally does nothing. It plays a role within a larger system. Increasing the market visibility of vegan alternatives may similarly do nothing to ameliorate the suffering of people, and many animals, under capitalism (though, of course, it does diminish the suffering of animals. If we all remained capitalists, but all converted to vegan capitalists, the amount of suffering and exploitation in the world will have decreased). However, for many people this is their role. It is what they are good at. They cannot rally and break windows. They cannot compel politicians to change the structure of our economic system. They cannot rhetorically rally the masses to their cause. But they can weigh the exploitation and suffering involved in the production and distribution of goods, and hope to make some progress through that.

Importantly, it doesn’t end there. Showing the suffering of animals in the production of our food involves showing the suffering caused by large agriculture. It has tendrils tying to environmental racism, to climate change, and ultimately to labor practices. This can illuminate to people the problems of capital indirectly. It has the potential to play that role.

Given all of this, I see no real reason why the vegan who merely changes her purchasing habits and publicizes animal cruelty fails to produce something incredibly useful in the fight against exploitation, domination, suffering, and capital. It might be less useful. And they criticism can be levied. And it might be less “good” in some moralized sense, where the person is less praiseworthy who doesn’t recognize and contribute to the end of the suffering involved in a capitalist economy. But you don’t want empty moralizing. And nor do I.

At the end of the day, I‘m just not sure what the criticism is and I’m not sure what it means. I’m not sure how much work it does. And I’m not sure how consistent it is. What we should be doing is educating vegans into a burgeoning anti-capitalism, not condemning ethical consumerism (as if we have more of a chance of making a difference in any other way when it comes to large-scale multi-trillion dollar industries and a deeply engrained capitalist economy).

Dalym

Ok. so I had to re-write this comment a few times.
You're not saying that all consumption is equally unethical or that there are no net gains from consuming one product compared to another.
You're saying that it's "not enough". That's it's a tiny drop of a very large ocean of actions that need to be taken to give the public the power to actually make a "good enough" impact or an effective change.

While I would like to get past capitalism for a host of other reasons, I'm on the fence on whether or not significant changes that the public wants in what we consume can occur under capitalism.
For example, organic fruits and vegetables are mare expensive to produce, and capitalists would make more money just selling us normal produce, but due to public pressure a greater and greater percentage of produce being sold is organic.

For the record, I actually oppose organic foods, but that's another topic.

My point is that, one could have told people 20 years ago, that promoting and buying organic isn't enough to change our collective consumption patterns in a way the public wants, because capitalism prefers selling GMO crops.
You can repeat this for cigarettes. Capitalists prefer to sell us more cigarettes, but market demand shifted down the supply of cigarettes produced.

Granted, worker owned production might make these shifts in supply easier to do then under capitalism, but sometimes "voting with your wallet" can work. I just agree that we shouldn't be limited to just that.

I also fear that acknowledging the limitations of activism via consumption might lead to apathy about what consumer products we buy. Looking at every attempt to convince the public to change a buying pattern as a misguided swing against shadows cast by capitalism sort of undermines groups like http://www.slavefreechocolate.org/ethical-chocolate-companies/

I ultimately agree that all this nit picking about not buying from "mean" companies isn't enough, but I think it's a valuable stair step, and it builds a case for promoting worker ownership.

All comments from YouTube:

Peter Coffin

4y↑4

Thanks for watching! My channel depends on all of YOU - help me produce better, more frequent content for as little as $1 a month on Patreon! Link is in description.

Simon Bennett

I love that your films all end up saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Because it really really really really needs saying over and over and over again. It's not you; it's the capitalist system. Work together to end it. Brill.

Chris H

5y↑439

Anti-capitalist vegan weighing in here. I appreciate your take on cultivated identity, and I agree with your argument that veganism has become a cultivated identity. If you spend 5 minutes on the subreddit, you'll find that half of the posts are about buying vegan-branded food or merchandise. Wearing a t-shirt with a pithy and provocative slogan isn't activism, it's purchasing an identity *. But here is where I disagree: you offer a solution that offers a no-praxis cop-out. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism—everything we do is path dependent on the exploitation of workers and the environment—yet we can still choose to act as ethically as we can. Choosing to not act ethically where one can because it's not going to change an oppressive system is a cop-out. It's an excuse to absolve oneself of their problematic behaviors. You're right that we can't buy our way out of exploitation—it's an integral part of the system. But the revolution starts from the bottom up. There will be no come-to-Jesus moment for the Bourgeoisies. We need to practice what we preach and empower the people by refusing to participate in their exploitation.

* Raymond Williams has a great essay called, 'Dominant, Residual, and Emergent,' in which he states that "emergent" fringe and radical movements in a culture (veganism, feminism, environmentalism, etc.) that pose a threat to the "Dominant" (Capitalism) are often subsumed into the dominant, creating a toothless and mainstream version of the movement. As you have pointed out, the way in which capitalism does this is by turning it into a cultivated/consumer identity. I agree with this whole-heartedly.

Kinch Kinski

@4 4 That's a fairly odd analogy... that's like saying 'Hey if you had the choice to stomp on a baby or eat a pickle, would you stomp on the baby?' The point is that choosing between 'ethical' and 'non-ethical' products on the market - say organic, free-range chickens and cage chickens or tofu burgers and beef burgers - makes no material difference to the system that prioritises profit over animal (and human) welfare. Moreover, many people cannot make those 'ethical' choices anyway because that same system impoverished them and such products command a premium. On top of that, this view of political activism grants more power and righteousness to those who have more money - if we vote with our dollars then more money means more votes - which, again, simply reinforced the overarching socioeconomic hierarchy that exploits animal and human lives in the first place.

Kinch Kinski

I guess the issue is the finger-pointing at people who DON'T choose the same ethical consumption profile as we do - the problem is saying that people not buying the (always more expensive) ethical alternative are the reason for the problems; they are not and we'll never build solidarity if we keep acting like they are

I think that's all he's saying, right? Like, buy whatever you want but don't pretend it's changing fundamental power relations or that the depredations of power are the fault of people who don't buy the 'right' things

Brandin Shaeffer

And sometimes identity capitalism has some really wonderful results...like cruelty free beauty products. It's a PR move for a company to go 'Cruelty Free', stop selling in China & stop testing on dogs & rabbits. But a hell of a lot of us pushed for it for years...back when it was actually a pretty tough thing to do b/c few companies were cruelty free. We voted with our dollars & shamed the companies. Now, pretty much every new beauty company on the planet is cruelty free & every week an old company makes the change. Maybe it doesn't stop the exploitation of workers, but I'm not a speciesist & believe that pain & fear is just as horrific when felt by a dog as it is when felt by a human. IT'S NOT NOTHING.

James Mirt

@Alice Williams Yes. And another element that's left out is that animal rights activist do not consider animals to be 'products'. The "no ethical consumption under capitalism" dogma is "no ethical consumption of products under capitalism."

I'm an anti-capitalist vegan. Animals aren't products. Their sentient creatures who's bodies are dismembered, packaged, and marketed as products. I don't see eating lentils and chickpeas in place of meat (RE: not a vegan product per se) as falling under "no ethical consumption under capitalism" for this reason.

Those who, consciously or not, include animals under the label of products along with coffee, plastic toilet brushes, and chocolate bars are making a basic error in logic. At least from the standpoint of a vegan / animal rights activists who sees animals as having some degree of personhood.

Dave Weese

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Sabrina Granger

5y↑174

Well this was appropriate to listen to while prepping my vegan lunch for tomorrow LOL
To me, being vegan or not buying fast fashion is merely recognizing that these systems are harmful and exploitative and since I personally have the option to not participate in them, I won't. I want more people to have that option and take it. BUT it's not enough and it's not activism by itself.

D.G.Lukes, Luthier

5y↑18

Exactly.

Animal exploitation is exacerbated by capitalism but it’s not like ending capitalism is gonna make it go away. Same goes for racism, sexism etc.

If you’re fighting capitalism AND choosing to consume animal products you’re sort of missing a trick.

Atheist Eve

5y↑11

Sabrina Granger Ushering in the final economic revolution is not the reason why I went vegan. We should do both those things.

Variant

5y↑45

Thank you, Peter. This is honestly quite therapeutic. You've helped me understand that even as a working artist, part of my struggle is even acknowledging that capital has to be considered when making art. I've just never felt like I fit into this system, and I think now I understand why.

Vashti Malkuth

5y↑33

I work in the field of adult education and students of mine are so downtrodden because they have been told over and over that they don't have a high school degree or that they are poor because they personally failed to show responsibility, capitalism has forced them to believe it's their fault. No one has ever taught them to examine the systems that led to them and often their whole families to be in this situation. Sooo, I view that as an important part of my job.

morphingfaces alien grey moth whistles

5y↑20

We should consume as ethically as we can and build a community that can dismantle capitalism you can do multiple actions at once if it is within your practical means you shouldn't feel better or superior because of your so called "ethical" behavior though because that's bringing back hierarchy and we don't need that shit no one person is better or more purposefully ethical then anyone else given that both are acting out of well meaning self survival, but going vegan does make a huge difference and a lot of people going vegan makes an even bigger impact on the well being of animals and the planet

Boddy

5y↑59

I'm a vegan and I won't never call myself an activist just because of that.
I want to do actual activism, but I got such much shit going on in my life right now, I don't have time or energy for it.

Caleb Green

FAAAAAACTSS

Tyler Balazic

5y↑46

There is a mode in between consumption of this type of media and activism. Some people (speaking of myself so I assume there are others since I'm not special) want to get to a level of understanding where they feel they know how they can act to change things. I broke out of this limbo and have started unionizing my HVAC shop by being presented with an opportunity to motivate my coworkers to organize. Now I'm realizing I've known more than enough to do this for a while now and only talked myself into thinking I didn't because of how complex and overarching the theory is behind everything. Finally getting down to trying to change something you realize no one else knows anything about any of this and that worrying about being an expert before acting was pointless especially since I still don't think I know nearly enough. So people need to just start making moves and not worry about knowing everything or nothing will never get done.

Tyler Balazic

5y↑4

@Chabaa well the workplace democracy angle you mentioned is a big part of it. Telling my co-workers this gives them a seat at the table for making some decisions for once was a big deal to them. Every workplace is different, every person is different so you just gotta find a way that works for you. I never stop talking so this was just easier for me.

Chabaa

5y↑1

@Tyler Balazic I really hope you're right because that sounds even better than what I'm suggesting!

Tyler Balazic

5y↑2

I say everyday to anyone that I'm a socialist and it still worked but I've also just been told I'm good at talking so I don't know if my way of doing it works for everyone. I've converted a few of the guys to sound like rabid labor activists so I think our ideas are popular enough to survive the stigma of labels when you're materially delivering for people.

Twenty Seventh Letter

@Tyler Balazic That's very helpful, thank you!

Chabaa

5y↑3

@Tyler Balazic yes, and when people complain about problems, offer them socialist solutions without even mentioning socialism. Socialist ways of doing things are incredibly popular, it's just that a lot of people don't know what socialism is. Workplace democracy is an incredibly popular idea.

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LinuxPoweredCommunism

5y↑354

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism - Sonic the hedgehog

tim1tim2tim3tim4

@Abram Painter I see your point. The greenhouse was only an example and problably not the best one.
The idea was to get really independet of the market. For example there won't be any capitalization of fertilizers if you can make from your own waste the fertilizer.
We have to find more ways to become independent of the market and spread this to othes.

The best is, if it's fun, needs less time and doesn't cost you anything.

Abram Painter

5y↑2

@tim1tim2tim3tim4 Honestly, I don't think agricultural "independence" is a viable solution. Agricultural technologies have developed in a way that is much more effective at larger scales, and with growing populations, these agricultural practices become more and more neccessary. We should consider also that being able to buy and maintain a greenhouse means you already have privileges that not everyone has. A greenhouse requires a lot of funds and a lot of space to build.

However, there's something even more pressing at hand which we have to adress. Let's just say everyone buys greenhouses instead of grocery products. All we've done is shifted the market from one service toward another. Someone is still capitalizing on the fertilizers, greenhouse materials, and the seeds of plants that go into a greenhouse, and probably exploiting laborers in the process. It also means that the net amount of labor in the system required to maintain it dramatically increases. This means that everyone will work more hours than they do currently.

Romanski

5y↑2

But there are things that are more unethical than others, I would argue. And striving for the less unethical is better than being indifferent imho.

tim1tim2tim3tim4

I think you could say consuming things directly from the people producing it is a bit more ethical. And buying things that allow you to create your own goods is even more ethical.

Like buying your own greenhouse/garden will definitely hurt the capitalism because you become more independent of buying their goods. When more and more people start doing that, the capitalists have less and less power.

Katherine Morelle

noisettes choco sure. But just choosing to consume slightly less awfully is not, in and of itself, activism.

Which is the point here.

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Tiger Style

5y↑35

While I agree "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" I don't like what that idea has done to a lot of people's thinking.

Sure, the company that makes boots in a unionized shop and the company making boots in a sweatshop are both unethical when it comes to being capitalist institutions. But to claim that they're equally bad is to ignore reality. One is obviously worse and while I most definitely wouldn't call shopping only from the unionized company activism, I'd still prefer it to shopping at the sweatshop. Somehow that's lost on a lot of people I've talked to.

We may not be able to consume ethically under capitalism, but we can try and minimize the damage done. But we also can't act like that alone will ever really change anything. There are a lot of places I prefer not to shop and a lot of brands I won't buy, but I'd never act like I'm accomplishing something by doing so. But I do know a lot of bike riding vegans that do. I love em, but they really are missing the point.

kaingates

Tiger Style Apistevist I agree. The reason capitalism fails is because we’re allures to the unethically produced goods and services. Capitalism would be dope if we all could buy unexploitative goods but that was never actually possible, it just didn’t hurt that close to home in the 50’s.

Doug

5y↑8

@Tiger Style Apistevist My takeaway from Peter's video was the extent to which consumer-based activism minimizes the damage done, as you put it, is consistently overestimated by activists with a consumer-based social change outlook. That is, people don't minimize the negative aspects of capitalism nearly as much as they think they do when they engage in "ethical" product consumption. In fact I'd go further and state that even with the best of intentions, getting really involved in this so-called ethical consumerism tends to draw people further into idea that they're actually doing something to challenge capitalism.

Nenona or Jo

5y↑17

You mean I can't just buy a patagonia jacket and some birkenstocks and that will end capitalism? this is gonna be harder than I thought.

in all seriousness, my favorite thing is knowledge, like teaching people how to fix their fridges so they can keep the same one running for longer, fixing older computer hardware to lower the sales of newer computer hardware, and encouraging people to be active in local government and regulations, not just regional ones. Like where I live they've neglected all the infrastructure to cut taxes on giant corporate properties for hyundai and BMW, so they have these giant facilities they pay zero property tax on, and you know, the people who work there use roads we pay taxes to upkeep to like, get to work every day, they use the electricity grid, etc. It's why I have been taking notes on a lot of the Amazon warehouse agreements going on in New York. Corporations should not be farming our local citizens for underpaid workers.

Alas Joy

5y↑83

Build relationships not products.

WTS Dubs

Probably should've focused more on the fact that this isn't talked about nearly enough in comparison to consuming more ethically, because people are getting a bit defensive when they could've been convinced. :P

Spirit Hawk

5y↑7

I always have to watch your videos 2 or 3 (or even 4) times to fully understand what you're saying but they're very educational and they really help me step back and think about the bigger picture instead of just blaming some single individual or group

Jane Dough

5y↑7

"Do things you know how to do against capitalism"
Well, all I got is working a cash register, so that may be difficult

Peter Coffin

5y↑4

Haha! Well that's not all you know how to do but I totally get that feeling.

Marxism Today

5y↑313

Nuh-uh, Peter, I'm a Revolutionary™️! My Che Guevara t-shirt demonstrates my radical lifestyle

The Gribble Report

Phantosmia social
Media is full of straw men

Mac mcskullface

@Christopher Stanley k

Phantosmia

how do you not see your comment as a strawman? the amount of people who purely "consume" content and call it activism are most likely not the majority, ive honestly not seen a single person wearing a che guevara shirt in my life or if i I did i have not obsessed about it so much id make a comment about. this comment reads more to me in the same vein the alt-right has against "SJW" that supposedly do outrages things all the time and enough we should make a 15 minute video about. outrage for the sake of outrage, content to please a base that agrees with this absurd fallacy .0001% of people that actually believe this way.

seems as most other commenters agree this is a video to justify peters odd stance against eating vegan in general would not improve society. you know im reminded of this clip from monty pythons the holy grail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4 replace judean peoples popular front with vegans. the left may be split but there is still a large portion who irrational hate on vegans so uploading a video bashing their ideology is free game. if peter, or any other leftist, truly cares about why people eat vegan i recommend mexies videos or her discussion with contra points. "if we ever acheive a communist society we would still like there to be a planet here" that is what changed my mind on this subject.

with this all in mind - do you not see how your comment is a strawman?

Conor Gleeson

5y↑9

Agreed

Sent from my iPhone

S.H.

5y↑4

Peter Coffin

5y↑1

thank you for this comment

Foxx Cant

5y↑133

I like this take. The idea that we can buy our way out of this mess by choosing a more benevolent capitalist overlord 'with our dollar' is kind of hilarious.

No, Karen, your organic, coconut super food, soaked nut, smoothie is not saving the planet, it just proves that capitalism is VERY GOOD at extracting surplus value from you.

ex_orpheus

Your local market gardeners who run a community garden and the Rainforest Alliance aren't capitalist overlords brotendo.

Elisa Soh

Lots of people seem to know and hate that chick named Karen.

Timothy Strohbehn

'Soaked nut' huh? sounds scrumptious.

Jose Miguel Macias Vocar

5y↑3

Organic crops actually use more water and pesticides than GMO's so Karen indeed isn't saving the planet

Jacob DeCoursey

5y↑14

@Neo-Anarchist——Ecocentric Radical It does, in a sense. Because of how markets behave, consumers can affect change in corporations to act "less malevolently." Not benevolently, just less horrible. McDonald's offering more healthy options and nixing the "super size" after the documentary Super Size Me came out is one example, because consumers were suddenly outraged, i.e. consuming contrarily to McDonald's profits, thus causing the company to restructure just enough to placate the consumer base.

If that's the desired effect in ethnically consuming, you can be successful. But the problem is consumption doesn't fix the underlying problems of capitalism. It only makes the problems more palatable at best and easier to ignore at worst.

It's not wrong. It's just not enough by itself, and we need to stop convincing ourselves it can be enough.

1 More Replies...

Sage Grey

5y↑8

I wish more people looked at paying money for independently made porn clips (or really paying independent sex workers in general) as consumption that is more ethical. Because it can really make a huge difference in the lives of sex workers, and maybe it's a fluke on my part, but most sex workers I've met are leftist! And if they feel safe enough organizing, they do so locally, with their communities!
I have a lot of jumbled up thoughts on this, but for some reason this was the vid that got the gears turning more.

Mystery Person

5y↑8

Hey Peter, just had a thought after the first minute of your video where you talk about people forming identities based on consumption. Do you think this works in reverse, that people can form identities based on production of something consumable? I ask this specifically in relation to yourself. Do you feel your work on YouTube has influenced your sense of self in any way, have you formed an identity around that to some extent? I don't think it's a bad thing to clarify, as you point out yourself these are neutral things to observe and talk about. They just sort of happen.
I know you've talked about how your work is co-opted by capital through things like YouTube, but this is more in relation to yourself and your sense of identity. Thanks in advance.

(oh and also, I'm trans and have wondered something for some time; do you think that being trans can be a cultivated identity? Even only in some specific situations or examples? I can't help but feel this myself sometimes, that we are somewhat forced into engaging with ourselves in terms of gender even if we might not want to, and through that we might end up 'cultivating transness' as a response to those pressures/talking to people who have gone through similar stuff. Again, I mean this neutrally- I am trans myself and don't think it would be any less valid if this was the case)

Maphisto86

5y↑4

Great video Peter. You really touched on all the points concerning "ethical consumption" and how we should feel (or not feel) about it.

P.S. Love the colour palette. It makes me feel warm and happy despite the dire subject matter.

Zalli

5y↑6

This video is straight fire. A lot of your videos revolve around the same or similar topics, but the different takes and angles to them help with hammering the concepts to people's heads. This one is particularly good!

Adam Kennedy

5y↑9

While I agree that spending won’t end our problem, supporting worker owned businesses, and encouraging others to do the same at least helps a little :)

Beesativity

I've been "doing more" throughout my entire 20's. Good video, good message. Solidarity, peace, and love.

Mablebeel

4y↑1

Love this. Sharing with everyone I care about as I think the ideas are very important and useful.

R B

5y↑6

wextia

100% agree. Animal consumption and exploitation would still be issues in a socialist utopia, as racism, sexism and transphobia. We need to show solidarity with all struggling beings.

Frater LVD

5y↑2

Awesome work Peter.

I've really been resonating with your message around working outside of capitalism to do things to help fellow human beings and life in general. Navigating that dynamic myself these days with trying to pay the rent while doing my projects and such, and your perspective has been really valuable.

Thank you for your voice, it's making a difference.

Kilgore Trout

5y↑4

Here's what happens under capitalism:
1) you start buying "ethically" produced animal products
2) "non-ethically" produced animal products go down in price to reach supply-demand equilibrium
3) eventually somebody poor enough to not be able to afford ethics ends up buying the "non-ethical" products

That's part of what is meant by "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism".

Justin Eaton

I'm that poor person

Marinary

5y↑3

Lovely taste in color and music :P
One of the things that really irritates me about this "consumption as activism" thing is that it prioritizes and values choices made by those with the money to do so. It assumes that money=voice, and so devalues action which isn't dependent on financial means.
Basically, if consumption is activism, then those who can consume more (ie have the means and money) are more active activists than those who can't, which is... uh, lame.

FUTURES

1 minute in and this is already the best video in a while. Appreciate you cutting to the chase Peter.

giouzerneim

5y↑1

I am starting to laugh or blow air through my nostrils more and more with your subtle sense of humor.
Thanks for the constant flow of inspiration!

Polynerdeia

I’m in love with the new pastel aesthetics, please keep it.

I feel like there is a fundamental problem with what comes across from this video. The message is “voting with your dollar is not enough” but it comes across as “voting with your dollar is completely pointless”. I think it ends up being demoralizing in a way that doesn’t promote the very action you want people to take.

You are good at criticizing but you’re not just good at that. I’d love to see more motivating content on this channel, if that’s not too much to ask. You promote a lot of other creators who are motivating, and bring hope, I’d love to see you too do some of that. Hugs.

PS: someone I beg you tell me what is the song at the end of Many Peters I’ve been asking this for months I need to know

Quantum Fisticist

5y↑17

It really is strange meeting a vegan who isn't at least critical of capitalism. The logical conclusion from the vegan paradigm is that capitalism is the driving force behind animal exploitation.
This subject also reminds me of the "outrage as activism" sludge that seems to find its way into more leftist spaces than it really should.

Although, it'd be fucking sick if we could just post our way out of capitalism.

Tooth PasteEater

5y↑4

@AliceDiableaux All of these are just techniques used to maximize output of goods for which there is demand. I do not see how a worker owned factory farm can't exist or do what you have just described. Politics/economics is about how we organize human societies primarily, not about how we treat animals. There are no inherent contradictions in either vegan capitalism or omnivore socialism/communism.

I am not for animal welfare, I am for their liberation. It is preferable that an animal is cuddled to death by loving uncle joe with a tear in his eye rather than slowly bled in Haram meat factory in the same way I would rather have my toe broken rather than my leg. What would be ideal is if no animal was brought into existance and used only as means to our ends.

I firmly believe that factory farms would have existed without any capitalism simply because they are more efficient at making what people want. In the same manner we would have made cars, phones and computers and other technology without capitalism, it is simply useful.

"or slaughtered the occasional cow or goat you had walking around" This is exactly the careless attitude towards animals I am talking about. In what world killing somebody against their will and using their body not an exploitation?

Tooth PasteEater

5y↑4

@Rust Animal use was not seen as necessary evil, but as proper and just. So to think that lack of moral concern for non-pets is somehow a modern capitalist invention is a little strange regardless.

Rust

5y↑3

Tooth PasteEater People hunted their own animals then and ate meat out of necessity. It’s not the same.

Tooth PasteEater

5y↑11

Humans have been consuming and abusing animals way before capitalism was even conceptualized. Fully automated gay space communism can have humans eating animals, capitalism is responsible for animal consumption to the same extent it is responsible for anything else in modern capitalist world. Veganism as ethical stance is about how we treat and relate to animals, not other humans.

King of Mario Kart 64

5y↑5

It's the overarching system. It is not the individuals. It's not our neighbors. Makes sense to me. If we maintain the critique of capitalism in our daily lives we then realize who is in control and what we should actually do about it. The video sums it up nicely.

King of Mario Kart 64

5y↑1

I bet by getting our coworkers involved in making a workplace more democratic. There are many actions to do and as long as you keep Marx in mind, you should be able to see where you can help change it and when. @Elie The Prof

Elie The Prof

5y↑1

The overarching system is still created by millions of individual decisions. Activism is talk, but the real question is: how should we change our actions?

Jordyn Brown

5y↑50

What about buying a lot of official Bernie Sanders swag? Jk I’m gonna do it away because i disagree with capitalism but advertising works.

fl00fydragon

5y↑4

@Cangel Tibon
Though he's nowhere near where we should already be he's a good first step for the current sorry state that we're in.

Matt Erbst

5y↑3

I forgive ya, because BERNIE!

Bleep Blarf

5y↑44

This color grade, this content, Thing Good

Va Qm

Important subject! Thank you for explaining this, Peter!

Thought Ray

5y↑7

I talk about this a little bit in my Anime Activism video but I got the idea from you. Consumption isn't activism!

Aaliyah K

5y↑1

Hazel Quantock

4 4

5y↑13

I'm still confused about how vegans should go about promoting their view of animal treatment. Someone help me understand pleeease. Do we do it after a system in line with marxist values has been established? I don't get it.

I'm still pushing for anti capitalist stuff but pretend you're a vegan for a second. How would you go about trying to get society to change in a direction that values animal lives as well???

Rose Sanderson

5y↑1

I'm not a vegan, and generally not a fan of people who advertise their eating habits one way or the other. What would make me want to listen to you is your plan for helping the marginalized folks in the community you're trying to advertise to. If you're out there helping make sure homeless or poor people have local, fresh, healthy food to eat I'm all ears. If you're setting up urban gardens to benefit the people who don't normally have fresh foods, I'm there for it. You just want to drag meat eaters or whatever, I'm not interested. Our whole food system is fucked and everyone going vegan isn't going to fix that.

Celina K

Because of how unhealthy it is, there should be higher taxes on it, like with alcohol
Lab meat and insect meat is the future anyway, since it's more affordable

Wilfred Hather

5y↑10

As a vegan, I think its doubtful marxist values in an of themselves will cause people to value animal lives and stop the killing. Its a step in the right direction, and of course if you think people should be treated with dignity and not exploited its not too far of a leap to see that animals should be too.

As anti-capitalist vegans, we can do both. But be prepared to come across both vegans who aren't anti-capitalist and anti-capitalists who aren't vegan. Its only by uniting the two that we can create a truly ethical society, imo.

4 4

5y↑5

@Moyayaille For sure. Those are all great ideas. I really appreciate the idea of trying to change public opinion through advocacy and platforms but I'm concerned because if I were doing it in line with the views of this channel.

Not placing any personal responsibility for contributing to the system of carnism, on the individual's choices, I don't see how we'd get the numbers to elect people to make legislative choices and even if for some reason legislation were created, wouldn't it be against the will of a huge number of people?

Moyayaille

5y↑6

Sudarsan Balakrishnan

5y↑1

Anand Giridhardas actually had an excellent sentence in his new book, quoting from another author Yascha Mounk - "responsibility, which once meant the moral duty to help and support others, has come to suggest an obligation to be self sufficient"

Lucretia K.

I really enjoy this series because you get to see Peter as himself, rather than playing a character. I was very moved by this video, and I'm glad that this was made. I'm definitely gonna share this video with anyone that needs it.

dwarfest

5y↑1

Thank you, Peter. When I first found your channel and started watching, I was an absolute dumbass. I was outraged by your content. Everything that you said was against everything that I believed at that point. But, to a point, I was intrigued how you're able to bring everything back to capitalism, so I stuck around. Then I started noticing how things in my life, specific parts of my job, can be explained in an anti-capitalist way. I'm glad I stuck around. I'm very young and I'm still learning, but your content did change my mind in a lot of ways. What you do means a lot. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

Peter Coffin

Thank you for listening!

Justin Reid

5y↑2

Hmm I wonder what you think about purchasing things from worker owned and operated cooperatives? I have both a worker-owned coop bookstore and food coop in town and, even though there is more labor involved in the supply chain than just the co-ops themselves, wouldn't that be supporting an escape from capitalism by making a purchase? I also try to shop at local/non chain stores because even though that's still capitalism and has it's problems, I do that to oppose monopoly hegemony. Though given all this I still strongly agree than, even with these exceptions, buying something isn't activism. I feel that mutual aid efforts are the beginning of truly resisting the neoliberal system.

Molseren

Coops still produce for consumption under capitalism. Workers are treated far better, sure, but from a perspective of, say, climate change, a cooperative still has no incentive to "produce ethically", producing ethically gives you inherent disadvantages compared to those who don't.

Random Space Thing

Well, that really was a slap on the face. Thank you.

Michael Thatcher

I’m a vegan but have recently come to really change my position on it because of these ideas and similar videos (Mexie’s is great for example) that have made it less about my morality or identity, but a continual reminder to try and break with the system of exploitation that penetrates our entire existence.

Johnny Doe

I think even though you can't defeat consumerism with consumption it's still beneficial to go vegan and advocate going vegan even on the consumption level. Because - and maybe I just haven't thought about it enough - I think that once consumerism/capitalism curbed or ended and there's no (or almost no) avenues for cultivating identity (such as meateater or hunter for instance) and everyone have access to non-animal products, we would still most likely continue to consume animal products merely out of habit.
So in that context I think it's beneficial to build the "vegan habit" even under capitalism (as far as you can afford, have access and abililty to), because when the personal responsibility will start to matter (in case capitalism is no more) - the choice already would've been made by then.

DeoMachina

5y↑2

As somebody who works in a factory I know all too well from history what people with my experience are supposed to do to bring down capitalism
And its scary, if the wrong person even hears me say anything about a union I'm out of a job.

DeoMachina

@Brisca The UK, and while there are legal protections in place, corruption runs to the core of everything.

Brisca

If i may ask, which country do you live in? At least over here in middle Europe, you have some legal protections to unionize.

Alfie D

Thanks for the video, a more mathematical argument in support of your point:

Even supposing the existence of a genuinely "ethical" product it is still not possible to ethically consume this product within a market system. The problem is to do with pricing and re circulation of money. The ethical product is (most of the time) more expensive than its unethical equivalent so in order to consume it you must first work more than you otherwise might have doing whatever probably not very ethical thing it is you do for money, then pay more for the purchase. The money you pay ends up in the pockets of the employees of the "ethical" company and they use it to go about their ordinary lives buying whatever they might buy. In short, more work performed by you, then more expenditure made by you, contributes to higher GDP which directly drives overall economic activity in a system which is inherently exploitative, polluting and amoral.

One criticism: I think you overstep slightly in your attitude to personal responsibility. I agree the conservative right use this phrase to describe something absurd and entirely co-opted. On the other hand i meet far too many people who refuse the notion that they have any power at all, who yammer on about the Illuminati and conspiracy theories and give in to a sense of fatalism. In my view "personal responsibility" means the responsibility to see yourself as you really are, as a potential agent of change, as one of many fundamentally equal partners making up the world, and from that stance to do anything and everything you can for what you believe in.

Threeli

5y↑1

Whenever I watch Peter's videos I want to respond to things but when I think about typing a comment I realize I just really want a back and forth convo so.... I guess go vegan?

Jessica Elsener יִסְכָּה

5y↑17

Wow. Bravo! Loved the color palette on this video!

Niveus Amazon

Good video. I agree it’s important for us to not let ourselves soaked in the individual responsibility idea and pointing fingers all the time.

hans schreibaufdermaschine

Interesting response to the "vote with your dollar" sentiment I recently heard: "When we say that we can simply vote with our dollar, that implies that a millionaire has so many more ways of voting than most people do. Can you really say that you are ok with that?"

Suadela

Me: a tree hugger who believes in limiting energy use to protect the environment.

Also me: a truck driver who idles her truck because a/c is a necessity in the summer.

Ben Drawer

5y↑1

Surgé Land

5y↑37

I am sick of hearing "we just need regulated capitalism". The people that say that don't understand that what makes the free market shit today, won't be what makes it shit a few years from now. Problems get replaced. Never solved.

Surgé Land

@DasVogelgriep Exactly. Social democracy works for now, but it won't forever. I don't know what comes next to be honest, I just know that capitalism will have to go altogether in the next 30 years or so.

DasVogelgriep

@Surgé Land I missed the part about social democracy in your earlier comments, but succdems have always and will always make some reforms that are actually good for workers, but at the same time they will use the police to stamp down actual anticapitalist movements. Social democracy is an ideology of capitalism

Surgé Land

@kaingates I'd say that social democracy is a bandaid solution. It's a way to make capitalism less oppressive now, but it won't remain that way. In the long run, capitalism will have to be replaced.

kaingates

Surgé Land but then your point is that we need to regulate the market. Social democracy is way closer to capitalism than socialism and is regulated capitalism. I think you confuse the failings of capitalism with the failings of a lot of western countries, with low to no regulation of an globalized economy where nation leaders didn’t have the balls to say “hey, when you companies join forces, it kills a lot of opportunities for people I represent”

DasVogelgriep

@Surgé Land yeah I mostly agree except Im saying the market didnt become shit, it was always shit to begin with

2 More Replies...

tyblazitar

Starting to feel better about my contribution to the cause: being poor, unemployed and on welfare.

Kristy Mounsey

I feel the idea of ethical consumption denies the idea that it isn’t possible for many of us. It requires a lot of finances.

Whitecut

The inevitable moral conclusion of ‘personal responsibility’ is ‘self-sufficiency’. Which is also an entirely flawed concept, as there is no such thing. Unless you are prepared to die of a tooth infection, or forge your own metal instruments which you have mined from the ground yourself. We have to live in communities.

python java

5y↑1

I agree with much of what you said here. My two cents is I think you can be both vegan and anti-capitalist. Even if capitalism goes away, killing and exploiting animals won't just disappear. Plus we haven't reached an anticapitalist society yet. Before we do there's not much you can do to live a less exploitative lifestyle outside of changing your consumer habits. The consumption will still be unethical but arguably less unethical. Plus either way, I see nothing wrong with refusing to participate in harmful systems that are repulsive to you, as much as you can in your given situated. And the situation we all share is capitalism. But consumption by itself is not activism

Alex

5y↑1

Hello Peter. Don't you remember your video about how "voting is not the solution, but it doesn't hurt either"?

crazymonk27

Oh man I love the awkward many Peter's introductions so much.

Suzumegaeshi

Good video; I still think withholding your "vote" (cash) from "genocidal regimes" (Nestlé) in this "democracy" (supply-demand driven markets) is a good idea though, and I want to believe you do too.

Brandin Shaeffer

4y↑1

Marijn Tak

Hear hear! I'm all for better treatment of animals and I barely eat meat, but I do once in a while hand-raise animals for consumption... I'm sick and tired of misguided vegans getting all pissy with me for defending eating meat... most of the "activists" I have to deal with are recent converts that often just use it as a identity stand-in.

Michael Ball-Blakely

PaleGhost69

5y↑3

Can't be a consumer if you don't have the money to. My activism is a forced hunger strike.

YEET Haw

When I became a vegetarian at age 5 I was thinking about an animals life not being worth the flavor but now it’s about how factory farming works and I know there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism but dang I really used to think I was an activist when I was like twelve💀. I want to start a communal garden so I can open up an opportunity for ethical consumption for more people. At this point a huge portion of my summer diet is from home grown vegetables.

egorka2201

Soo true! Thank you!

memoryalphamale

Operating under capitalism there is some expression of activism in what one chooses to consume and how it is consumed. Like a vote in a national election in the US, it is one of the few small things one may be confined by their circumstances to choose to do. We must do as needs demand. Be as active an activist as one can, just understand the limits and consequences of any activism is unknowable at the human super-organisms understanding of psychohistory;)

Good stuff, PC. Thanks for the thoughts.

imaginareality

5y↑1

But sometimes by choosing "ethical options" you help to establish alternative systems. For example, if I choose to become part of community-supported agriculture (I just translated that via wikipedia, I hope you know what I mean), then I am not just consuming, I am also supporting an alternative system of agriculture which I think is a good thing because once we got rid of capitalism, we need new ways of doing things and it's easier when certain systems are already (at least partially) in place.
I think a lot of those so called ethical options are working to figure out how we could produce and consume differently, even if it is still under capitalism, and that's an aquired pool of knowledge which is pretty important.
Same goes for veganism. I agree that, in the end it doesn't matter all too much if you as an individual make the choice to become vegan, but since I do strongly believe that veganism or at least vegetarianism is the right thing to do (the only diet that could be ethical), it helps to practice it now.

imaginareality

Also, if we want a post-capitalist world that is actually sustainable, then we need to change our consumer behaviour. And I don't think consumerism and materialism are just automatically going to disappear after capitalism because it is so ingrained in us at this point. So I really think that we should start working on changing our own thoughts and behaviours (our habits) now and chosing "ethical products" is one way of doing it (it shouldn't be the only way we consume, we should also rely heavily on recycling / upcycling and bying used products).

erika

I'm an anti-capitalist vegan and even though you explicitly qualified it multiple times in the video, it still takes me a few days to fully process and accept the fact that that your cultivated identity criticism of uppercase V Vegans doesn't apply to me. I would challenge you to take it easy on Vegans because in my experience, someone who is motivated by the exploitation of animals is the most probable to be receptive to the message, if they didn't feel like they've been singled out and raked over the coals for choosing not to contribute to said exploitation via consumption. I know that is not your intention and I'm still with you, but just food for thought.

Peter Coffin

5y↑1

The thing is I get that! And I really want to be very clear: solidarity to you. It's hard. This stuff runs deep (it's been pounded into our heads our whole lives) and the only way to even start combating it is acknowledging it.

Thank you for taking it seriously enough to listen!

Okay So

I like the message here. Though I'm not a very sharp thunker, and doing the right thing to take power away from capitalism and amoral institutions isn't very clear. Readers, mind lending me, a rando, some advice with trying to figure out some small ways to change how we cling to identity and how it dictates our consumption to the benefit of the rich and powerful?

- Support my co-workers promote unionization in my very non-unionized job?
- Contact and share articles of concern about climate change to my local elected trade, environment and energy reps?
- Volunteer in providing free education and local food programs and communal projects?

I know it isn't really much activism, but am a tiny thunk. Am try.

JamesFLivingstone

5y↑1

I have one question. How do I find where I can be useful? real talk, the last twelve months of my life has been very confusing and I guess I'm lacking a sense of personal confidence right now but something I draw a lot of happiness from is viewing my productivity as part of a greater cause.. so for my selfish self esteem and also because i think it would be a good idea I want to help the anti-capitalist cause but I don't really know where I can start.

JamesFLivingstone

@Peter Coffin thank you very much for that advice, a shared compassion builds a shared solidarity.

I think left-tube would do well to champion actions people can take locally like this. We're in this collective but subscribing to your thought leader of choice, having a ponder, and calling it a day is not only not productive but also pretty depressing. As activists we actually need to be active.

PS: I know the internet wants your head on a pike again.. more so than usual at this time. I hope you're best coping as you can, care for yourself and stay safe OK x Nice video btw thanks for being so thoughtful <3

Peter Coffin

5y↑3

do you know anyone locally who is questioning their place as you are? that person is "where you can be useful" - and as there are more and more people like that, you should seek them out and build solidarity and organize in a manner that allows a collective of people to take power from capital and the state.

imo... find a need, fill a need

Austin Derr

Thank you for making this

Têt'dmétal Chèvrehumaine

5y↑2

I think you can still be a vegan activist that's not anticapitalist, because many people still don't recognize the unethical treatment of animals as being wrong or as something that needs to change. Convincing people of this is activism.

It's just that doing this kind of activism will not fix the underlying structures behind exploitation. I'd say the same thing about pretty much any kind of activism.

Celina K

It's easier to be self righteous when you can say; yes I can afford and have the energy to be personal responsible.
Now what have you and your business done?

Davis Zollars

5y↑3

So what can we do if our consumption choices dont effect capitalism? I belive in minimalisim as a way to participate as little as possible in the system but have I just cultivated a lame identity as a minimalist existing within the context of capitalism?

Davis Zollars

@Marusya Asarabacara
I completely agree it is a quiet form of protest from my point of view. If large amounts of people did it and cut out most non essential purchaces companies would lose profits and the overall market will be effected.

Davis Zollars

@Peter Coffin
Thanks for the response that makes sense. I just wanted to make sure I fully understood what you were saying! Much love to you Mr. Coffin hope all is well ♡

Peter Coffin

5y↑2

No, capital has cultivated it. You haven't done anything, this is not on you. Cultivation of identity is an action capital takes. You're doing things that look like change because they change something in your life. And that's not wrong or something you have to account for. The real issue is that we are given a lie in which something beyond that looks unnecessary - but it isn't. You don't ever have to take on the responsibility for the lies of the system. You just need to see them and understand the coalition we need to form to fight them! ♥️

The Clawless

This is a wayyyyy better explanation of the vegan stuff you mentioned in other videos. I’m still new to leftist STUFF (Idk what else to call it haha) so having an in depth explanation of an individual topic is helpful. Like this probably seemed obvious to YOU when you brought it up but to me it was like some sort of crazy rocket science.

Questionable Object

It's sad when people think they actually have a choice under capitalism "vote with your wallets" etc. etc. They don't realize that the whole system is rigged and no matter what they lose.

Benjamin Tchang

I’m vegan and I understand what you’re saying regarding consumption as not being activism. It’s certainly true there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, however that does not mean we shouldn’t consume as ethically as possible— seeing as nonhuman animals are moral and conscious just like us, absent of a survival scenario (broadly conceived) we should not eat them. And what or who you eat is not direct action, sure, but then why not take direct action to end animal suffering? Look, Its never convenient to examine our own prejudices, hell I ate animals most of my life, so I know the mindset a lotta people have on this issue since I used to have it to. But choosing to hurt animals is a hurtful mindset, plain and simple. One that reinforces all oppression.

Annoyed Dave

5y↑2

Peter, you missed the entire point of why we need to be vegans.

Aesthetics matter, and avoiding contradiction is of the utmost importance for how people follow and look towards us as examples of progressive ideology. We can't choose what progressive politics we like, and which we don't, especially if the justification for not changing our own lives comes down to a 14 minute "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism".

All progressives in the movement must be as forward thinking as possible, and must embody the principles of change they wish to see. It's unscientific and illogical of us to care about resource conservation, environmental destruction, public health, and rights; yet not talk about the 57 billion land animals slaughtered each year, where animal agriculture is the largest source of environmental destruction, resource consumption, health problems. This also doesn't even bring into the discussion the sentience and consciousness of these enslaved beings being murdered for their flesh and excretions.

We have to lead by example. Sorry Peter, there is no middle ground, unless you are willing to accept a blatant contradiction in your ethical system, which would make you a hypocrite.

wextia

This should be way higher up!

Andrew Raby

Great job Peter. I've always had a dream to be an indie game developer. As I have gotten older, I've become pretty anti capitalist. How do I justify these two things? Desiring a small business while thinking that we need a new system completely. I've been looking into worker co-ops which seems to be a good way to operate in a capitalist system without engaging in capitalism's terms. Just something that nags at me

Andrew Raby

@Peter Coffin Thanks for the response Peter. Keep up what you're doing and I'll try to do my part

Peter Coffin

5y↑2

Can back that up! Dead Cells was made by an anarcho-syndicalist co-op developer and it's fucking *good*.

DeoMachina

5y↑1

A worker's co-op is actually really important, and some indie developers are already doing this.
It's important because people need to point to companies that work that way. You so much as suggest capitalism is flawed and people will drone "communism works..IN THEORY" at you, and you counter that with examples of co-ops and saying "Nnoooo you fuckerrr, these guys don't even have a boss! They're doing it! We could be doing it! Tell me why we can't just do that!"

Positively Thriving

Treating these issues like they’re mutually exclusive is wrong regardless of which side you fall on. If you are vegan without recognizing how capitalism plays a part in the use of animals, you’re limiting your effectiveness in fighting injustice.

LIKEWISE if you are criticizing capitalism for its exploitation and you recognize that animals are included in that exploitation BUT you are not vegan because “muh no ethical consumption”, you are shirking your responsibility as an individual to do what you can WITHIN an unjust system to not support injustice.

Being vegan helped me become anti-capitalist. I wish more leftists would become vegan.

Wendy Panda

Another good example would be a phone company called "Credo Mobile". It gives the illusion of activism by consumption ("Your payment allows you to choose which charity/organization we help this month!") while not actually educating people about the systems that cause the need for activism or charity in the first place.

Astro Emma

I might even say "ethical consumption" is worse than just, say, buying from Amazon. Why? Because capitalism will eventually collapse in on itself inevitably, and so "ethical consumption" only increases the wait time till collapse (which means more time during which workers are exploited).

thesundancekid

hi- little late here. just by a, uh, year. i’m a member of a few mutual aid organizations in my city, i’m constantly trying to subtly educate those around me, and to put a “friendly face” uhg on leftist causes. for a long time now, i’ve been a minimalist, and an “ethical consumer” another uhg does that make my...efforts in vain? or..false even? thanks man, great content

zjc92

5y↑2

Not that I don't love the vaporwave aesthetic but why has most of lefttube switched to this "purple and blue" aesthetic?

Obviously ContraPoints does it, Philosophy Tube does it, now Peter Coffin.

Is there a memo I missed that says everyone on the left has to love Bladerunner 2049?

Sam Vente

okay, so, I hear what you're saying, we should do more than just consume differently to fix our problems. Here's my question: What can I do, realistically? What I mean is, I want to keep my job as you said, but due to some disabilities I just can't manage to do much more than that. Are there ways I can make a difference while not taking so much energy away from my job that that starts suffering? I love your content, but I have to admit, it's a little hard to apply once you've convinced me (which you manage to do regularly)

Charlotte McEachern

5y↑2

Glad your still standing Peter

luna bell

5y↑32

a beautiful soft pastel peter......

Matt Erbst

5y↑1

He is pretty today isn't he?

Luca

5y↑1

I agree with you but the way you frame it sometimes makes people think than, for example, being vegan is pointless.

Dalym

Enough For Everyone

This is so spot on.

Nick Bensema

The argument night be stronger if you put more weight on how much industry has dictated the American diet so far, how bacon is a meme because of pork industry marketing what was once a byproduct into a delicacy, and the dairy industry doing the same thing to cheese but with Reagan's help. Consumers had no way to see that coming.

Felicia Entwistle

I don't know how to organize. I don't know how to get in touch with organizers. And my experience in the past with other activism really flared up trauma. I'm trying to just educate and motivate people around me, and get people thinking and feeling passionate on my own YouTube show.

Skrillex801

So proud of you Peter!

Mashir

As a lacan would put it, it's an interpassive activity. Psychoanalytically purchasing a product with the intention of activism, acts as a substitute of real activism.

Josée Marchand

I am an anti-capitalist who happens to also be vegetarian (and working towards veganism). For me those two things are linked. I don't want animals to be exploited, but I don't want humans to be as well. I'm well aware of the fact that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but some things are worse than other, so I see my ¨vegan consumption¨ as a way to reduce harm. I'm not a huge activist myself, but I'm working to build a cooperative, I buy mainly second hand clothes, I study and write on eco-feminism and marxist-feminism, etc. The fact that I buy almond milk instead of cow milk isn't activism and I wish other vegans would see it as well. I don't feel apart of the vegan community for all that you said.

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